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[Ntikrst]

Nope. Pretty much all of Marvel's top writers are off their books in the fall, and they haven't said what they'll be on..

Hickman off F4/FF, and The Ultimates.
Bendis off both Avengers.
Aaron off Wolverine.


There's gonna be some shakeups this fall, that's for sure.

Yeesh, that's kinda scary.

DC's shakeup last fall really put me off, hopefully Marvel isn't going to follow suit.

[ElijahSnowFan]

I did the opposite of some: I stopped reading it because I knew Hickman is a long-form writer -- which is the kind of stuff I actually love -- because I love reading stuff all at once.

I believe in runs. I believe in run integrity. I realize I'm not helping the book itself by waiting, but for me, when I know it's a guy like Hickman, I feel better after I read the whole thing at once.

One day, a week or two or three after his final issue, I'm going to have an "FF Reading Day" in the Comics-Reading Den and go to town.

By the way: Lee/Kirby, as was mentioned, has to be the best. I realize the writing itself can't hold up. But the things those guys created...they built a world. They built a world, folks.

We take that stuff for granted so much, now. It's why it pains me when Chris Claremont gets ridiculed. What guys like Lee/Kirby did on FF, Claremont on X-Men...they created so much.

They'll forever have my respect. I think what they did is the hardest thing in comics to do: Create consistently.

[Chris]

By the way: Lee/Kirby, as was mentioned, has to be the best. I realize the writing itself can't hold up. But the things those guys created...they built a world. They built a world, folks.

We take that stuff for granted so much, now. It's why it pains me when Chris Claremont gets ridiculed. What guys like Lee/Kirby did on FF, Claremont on X-Men...they created so much.

They'll forever have my respect. I think what they did is the hardest thing in comics to do: Create consistently.

This is kind of a tangent here, I realize..

But not to take anything away from what those guys, or Claremont, or any of the "architects" of the Marvel Universe did. They really did create a fuckton of characters, and they built the entire line up from scratch..

But a flipside to that is.. it's easier to create in a vaccuum.

I see complaints all the time that there's nothing new being done in comics anymore. Well, there is.. it just doesn't take off, because everything is competing with 50-60 years of history. Every now and then, a character catches on, but for the most part, new creations are more of a distraction than anything these days. Gravity #1 (or whatever that Sean McKeever Marvel character was) is a nice way to pass the time between issues of Spider-Man or X-Men.. but ultimately, there's more investment in the continuity of the characters we grew up reading. So new ideas will face a much tougher uphill battle today than they would in the Silver Age.

[Amoebas]

This is kind of a tangent here, I realize..

But not to take anything away from what those guys, or Claremont, or any of the "architects" of the Marvel Universe did. They really did create a fuckton of characters, and they built the entire line up from scratch..

But a flipside to that is.. it's easier to create in a vaccuum.

I see complaints all the time that there's nothing new being done in comics anymore. Well, there is.. it just doesn't take off, because everything is competing with 50-60 years of history. Every now and then, a character catches on, but for the most part, new creations are more of a distraction than anything these days. Gravity #1 (or whatever that Sean McKeever Marvel character was) is a nice way to pass the time between issues of Spider-Man or X-Men.. but ultimately, there's more investment in the continuity of the characters we grew up reading. So new ideas will face a much tougher uphill battle today than they would in the Silver Age.

Damn those classic story-tellers for having told such classic stories!

Fuck Stan Lee in the nose for keeping Jessica Jones from being America's #1 super-heroine

Remember everyone - at the next convention when you see an old timer - punch them in the spleen! They deserve it because Gravity doesn't have his own movie.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Don't punch them in the spleen. Go for the kidneys, it'll hurt more

[Chris]

Damn those classic story-tellers for having told such classic stories!

Fuck Stan Lee in the nose for keeping Jessica Jones from being America's #1 super-heroine

Remember everyone - at the next convention when you see an old timer - punch them in the spleen! They deserve it because Gravity doesn't have his own movie.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Don't punch them in the spleen. Go for the kidneys, it'll hurt more

I think you missed my point completely.

[Amoebas]

It's tough for new things to become popular because the old stuff is so good.

What'd I miss?

[ElijahSnowFan]

Damn those classic story-tellers for having told such classic stories!

Fuck Stan Lee in the nose for keeping Jessica Jones from being America's #1 super-heroine

Remember everyone - at the next convention when you see an old timer - punch them in the spleen! They deserve it because Gravity doesn't have his own movie.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Don't punch them in the spleen. Go for the kidneys, it'll hurt more

Holland: It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. I do.

But I just disagree with it. Yes, it's easier to come up with new characters when there aren't any. There's no disputing that.

But what Lee/Kirby did, Claremont...they didn't just create characters. They created motivations. Bonds between characters. Rivalries. Friendships and relationships and "shared experiences."

That's what I mean by world-building. It's the difference between what, say, Wildstorm was before Warren Ellis got in there and started revamping Stormwatch, created Planetary.

There are so many creators who come up with soulless characters. They have absolutely NO SOUL. It's like they are robots who exist only to fight and deliver one-liners and look baffled when the bad guys do bad things and the good guys foil their plots.

I remember Scott Lobdell's sneering at the X-Men's penchant to play softball. He thought it was stupid.

That's why Scott Lobdell's a hack.

Playing softball for a few panels every 10th issue is what made the X-Men "human." They lived at a school, for God's sake. They had KIDS living on campus, after a while.

That's why Wolverine & The X-Men has been enjoyable for me. Like when in AvsX, when Hope told Logan that Quentin Quire was selling fake IDs, and Logan was like, "Jesus. That kid's going to be the death of me."

That's characterization. It's what makes these characters who can fly and shoot laser beams and bend steel...relatable.

That's what Lee/Kirby did, Claremont did. They didn't just create characters. They created "people," who interacted.

[Amoebas]

Holland: It's not that I don't understand what you're saying. I do.

But I just disagree with it. Yes, it's easier to come up with new characters when there aren't any. There's no disputing that.

But what Lee/Kirby did, Claremont...they didn't just create characters. They created motivations. Bonds between characters. Rivalries. Friendships and relationships and "shared experiences."

That's what I mean by world-building. It's the difference between what, say, Wildstorm was before Warren Ellis got in there and started revamping Stormwatch, created Planetary.

There are so many creators who come up with soulless characters. They have absolutely NO SOUL. It's like they are robots who exist only to fight and deliver one-liners and look baffled when the bad guys do bad things and the good guys foil their plots.

I remember Scott Lobdell's sneering at the X-Men's penchant to play softball. He thought it was stupid.

That's why Scott Lobdell's a hack.

Playing softball for a few panels every 10th issue is what made the X-Men "human." They lived at a school, for God's sake. They had KIDS living on campus, after a while.

That's why Wolverine & The X-Men has been enjoyable for me. Like when in AvsX, when Hope told Logan that Quentin Quire was selling fake IDs, and Logan was like, "Jesus. That kid's going to be the death of me."

That's characterization. It's what makes these characters who can fly and shoot laser beams and bend steel...relatable.

That's what Lee/Kirby did, Claremont did. They didn't just create characters. They created "people," who interacted.

There has been a single word that has eluded me in this discussion of Hickman's FF. And in the span of a day, I've seen two individuals find and use it.

ESF has just said it and it was the theme of a lengthy letter printed in this week's FF (and by "FF" I mean the abbreviation for Fantastic Four, not that other book).

What made the FF great wasn't the characters. It was the character's humanity.

Some writer's get that, many don't. Hickman, imo, is part of the latter (although the Reed/Ben couch scene and this week's (predictable) FF is a step in the right direction.

[Chris]

What made the FF great wasn't the characters. It was the character's humanity.

Some writer's get that, many don't. Hickman, imo, is part of the latter

I could not possibly disagree more.

[The Shadow]

Nope. Pretty much all of Marvel's top writers are off their books in the fall, and they haven't said what they'll be on..

Hickman off F4/FF, and The Ultimates.
Bendis off both Avengers.
Aaron off Wolverine.

As long as Brubaker stays on Cap and Winter Soldier I'll be happy.

[Amoebas]

I could not possibly disagree more.

Then you're not trying hard enough

[Jubilee]

It's tough for new things to become popular because the old stuff is so good.

What'd I miss?

Not so good or better.

Just older.

[chap22]

I could not possibly disagree more.

no, i get what Amoebas is saying, b/c there are pretty long stretches through the run where Hickman doesn't show the humanity, or really much characterization at all, for the Four (and i'll be honest, i still don't think he has a great grasp on Sue, but he does show flashes). but i think that was by design, as he was really doing more to unfold the plot beats of his story, instead of digging into who they are.

when he does take the time to showcase a bit of character (his first arc, Franklin's birthday, the Arcade issue, the issue where Johnny takes Ben out for a night on the town, Johnny's death and funeral issues, and the last 4-5 issues of F4 and FF, for examples), he really seems to nail it for the most part. he just uses kind of a "less is more" approach.

[TheSecondLex]

Very yay.

I was on the fence about it for a long time, mostly because I intensely hate Spider-Man and loathed to see him on the team. Hickman makes up for it though in The Room: 'unexpected, the Spider Man also possesses a formidable intellect'.

Good:
--The invitations to the Destroy Reed Symposium.
--The alternate Reeds, the last four of which I nicknamed Techy, Bluey, Whitey and Wheels--to keep them straight
--Nick Dragotta's art
--The Ben/Reed/Doom/Nathaniel sidetrip to hunt down Other!Nathaniel.
--Namor killing the crap out of Old Atlanteans.
--Bentley 23 and everything he does
--'Kill Annihilus'
--Ronan and the Kree. Because the Kree are pretty cool anywhere they go.
--'Here I can build.' Oh yes
--Valeria's handshake with Doom. A long way from the days of 'Unthinkable'.
--Sue telling Nathaniel where he can stick his future-knowledge

Weird:
--Johnny saying in 'Three' that he wanted kids. Weird.
--Techy and Whitey's repurposing into the new Supremor. I expected more of these alternate Reeds.

Bad:
--Nathaniel. Just shut up, yeah?
--Nu-World. For those of us that can't stand Hitchy's art and didn't read Millar's run, this was weird and dumb. But whatever.



And I'm still trying to figure out that flashback or whatever in 'Three' that shows Doom, Reed and what appears to be John Byrne circa 1986 all strapped to a table with Kirby dots all around. Was this from the Intelligencia stuff?

[Zero]

no, i get what Amoebas is saying, b/c there are pretty long stretches through the run where Hickman doesn't show the humanity, or really much characterization at all, for the Four (and i'll be honest, i still don't think he has a great grasp on Sue, but he does show flashes). but i think that was by design, as he was really doing more to unfold the plot beats of his story, instead of digging into who they are.

when he does take the time to showcase a bit of character (his first arc, Franklin's birthday, the Arcade issue, the issue where Johnny takes Ben out for a night on the town, Johnny's death and funeral issues, and the last 4-5 issues of F4 and FF, for examples), he really seems to nail it for the most part. he just uses kind of a "less is more" approach.

This sums it up pretty neatly, and I expect the reason we don't feel like he's got a good grasp of Sue is partially because she's barely been given much to do. Cause or effect?