The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[KING King Impulse]

DC don't need to name a character to keep the rights though. If they were publishing a comic called 'Oracle' that'd be one thing, but Marvel could create their own Oracle tomorrow no problem. That's why Marvel always made sure they'd have a Captain Marvel comic on the shelves every other year or so, until DC just gave up and called theirs Shazam.

[e_galston]

DC don't need to name a character to keep the rights though. If they were publishing a comic called 'Oracle' that'd be one thing, but Marvel could create their own Oracle tomorrow no problem. That's why Marvel always made sure they'd have a Captain Marvel comic on the shelves every other year or so, until DC just gave up and called theirs Shazam.

Marvel DOES have an Oracle character and she pre-dates Babs being Oracle by about 12 years.

[Ntikrst]

Marvel DOES have an Oracle character and she pre-dates Babs being Oracle by about 12 years.

As long as there isn't a trademark involved, two characters can share a name if that's all they share.

All part of Dan and the Gang's Marvelization of the DCU.

The DCU has been Marvelizing since 1986. The more Marvel I read these days, the more I think DC isn't trying hard enough to tell great stories. I think the DCnU is better off as far as the individual titles go but the overall cohesion of the continuity is almost non-existent and it seems like the books that rely on group dynamics suffer the most for it.

[e_galston]

As long as there isn't a trademark involved, two characters can share a name if that's all they share.

i know that, i was just responding to the statement of marvel creating a character named oracle

[Herald]

As long as there isn't a trademark involved, two characters can share a name if that's all they share.



The DCU has been Marvelizing since 1986.

The DCU didn't blatantly rip off S.H.I.E.L.D. and spell it A-R-G-U-S in 1986. (As mentioned by someone elsewhere, the only thing Dan and the Gang didn't do is give "Steve Trevor" an eyepatch...)

The general public were still allowed to be nigh-worshipful toward the heroes back in 1986. The Justice League wasn't made to be "Feared and hated by a world they've sworn to protect!" back in 1986. On that note...

Nobody instructed Mike W. Barr to write the Outsiders so as to "bring the X-Men to DC" in 1986, as DiDio specifically instructed Judd Winick to do in his Outsiders run.

And -- oh, yeah:
They weren't hiring '90s Marvel burnouts by the score because they put the guy who made Marvel crash and burn in the '90s in charge back in 1986.

The DCU was still highly distinguishable from Marvel post-Crisis, as demonstrated by JLA/Avengers. DC heroes were truly heroic and generally upbeat, and the public loved them. (Yes, Quicksilver, there IS a Flash Museum!) Not so nowadays; all the DC characters have to have the same miserable feet of clay that you get from the Marvelous Competition. If I wanted to read Marvel, I would read Marvel.

The more Marvel I read these days, the more I think DC isn't trying hard enough to tell great stories. I think the DCnU is better off as far as the individual titles go but the overall cohesion of the continuity is almost non-existent and it seems like the books that rely on group dynamics suffer the most for it.

And that's part of the problem: They don't know what they're doing, other than they want to be Marvel-lite.

[holtom2000]

another great post by Herald, if anyone's keeping score

[Ntikrst]

The DCU didn't blatantly rip off S.H.I.E.L.D. and spell it A-R-G-U-S in 1986. (As mentioned by someone elsewhere, the only thing Dan and the Gang didn't do is give "Steve Trevor" an eyepatch...)

The general public were still allowed to be nigh-worshipful toward the heroes back in 1986. The Justice League wasn't made to be "Feared and hated by a world they've sworn to protect!" back in 1986. On that note...

Nobody instructed Mike W. Barr to write the Outsiders so as to "bring the X-Men to DC" in 1986, as DiDio specifically instructed Judd Winick to do in his Outsiders run.

And -- oh, yeah:
They weren't hiring '90s Marvel burnouts by the score because they put the guy who made Marvel crash and burn in the '90s in charge back in 1986.

The DCU was still highly distinguishable from Marvel post-Crisis, as demonstrated by JLA/Avengers. DC heroes were truly heroic and generally upbeat, and the public loved them. (Yes, Quicksilver, there IS a Flash Museum!) Not so nowadays; all the DC characters have to have the same miserable feet of clay that you get from the Marvelous Competition. If I wanted to read Marvel, I would read Marvel.



And that's part of the problem: They don't know what they're doing, other than they want to be Marvel-lite.

You're selective memory is conveniently glossing over the first 3-4 years post CoIE. My favorite Superman run of all time had a Marvelized version of the character who was fallible, de-powered, at times at odds with law enforcement and facing off against Kingpin Luthor. Flash was relegated to courier jobs and trying to make things work because he could only travel at the speed of sound. Green Lantern was this new edgy character named Guy Gardner who was excessively violent and pretty sexist. Batman went full Marvel with the Dark Knight Returns and Wonder Woman had a sombre tone under George Perez where she ditched most of her old continuity for a closer bond to the pantheon of greek gods. Finally, there was the Justice League, where a group of 2nd stringers and Batman try to overcome their own short comings and personal infighting in time to stop the bad guys. These guys were fallible, to say the least, compared to the Seven Samurai and it was awesome to behold.

The first 3-4 years Post CoIE was DC's high water mark and they have struggled to maintain that level of quality ever since.

DC didn't want to be Marvel lite then or now. DC wanted to write stories for adolescents and ditch the upbeat, saccharine treatment for their licences that children find so appealing. Children want to blindly worship heroes because it makes them feel safe about the world they live in while adolescents/teenagers want a vicarious experience with characters they can relate to. This is why Marvel dominates the market and why DC keeps sucking. They have these reboots like CoIE and for a few years they try to cater to the majority demographic but over time they get cold feet and they acquiesce to their excessively vocal minority fan base by farming the IP and rehashing the Silver Age Hero worship.

DC needs to stop playing it safe and cut that Silver Age shit loose once and for all. Teenagers don't want to worship authority and that's who comic books should be written for. Marvel gets it and that's why DC has been playing catch up all these years.

[dairydead]

another great post by Herald, if anyone's keeping score

The only person i know that keeps score is the Latino Review guy

[Herald]

You're selective memory is conveniently glossing over the first 3-4 years post CoIE. My favorite Superman run of all time had a Marvelized version of the character who was fallible, de-powered, at times at odds with law enforcement and facing off against Kingpin Luthor.

A Superman that was still more powerful than practically any Marvel character outside the super-cosmic types, who still was a Swiss Army Knife of abilities. And he still didn't whine like a Marvel character, either. I'll take him!

Flash was relegated to courier jobs and trying to make things work because he could only travel at the speed of sound.

1. And then he won the lottery.
Post-Crisis didn't really keep the DC luck down.

2. Yet the Flash Museum, temple of all DC speedster worship, still existed.
Again: Eat it, Quicksilver!

Green Lantern was this new edgy character named Guy Gardner who was excessively violent and pretty sexist.

1. Guy Gardner wasn't new; he was created years before.

2. You know who was new at that time?? KILOWOG. A trustworthy GL, indeed.

Batman went full Marvel with the Dark Knight Returns

Batman has been Marvel since 1939, with that sob story origin of his.

and Wonder Woman had a sombre tone under George Perez where she ditched most of her old continuity for a closer bond to the pantheon of greek gods.

And she managed to best those Greek gods time and again while still being nominally mortal.
That's standard-issue DC right there.

Finally, there was the Justice League, where a group of 2nd stringers and Batman try to overcome their own short comings and personal infighting in time to stop the bad guys. These guys were fallible, to say the least, compared to the Seven Samurai and it was awesome to behold.

Those guys were too fun-loving, too rambunctious, too "Bwahaha!!" to behave in the Miserable Marvel Manner. And it was WELL PAST awesome to behold.

The first 3-4 years Post CoIE was DC's high water mark and they have struggled to maintain that level of quality ever since.

They shoulda kept the League funny.

DC didn't want to be Marvel lite then or now.

Tell that to Dan "Bring the X-Men to DC!" DiDio.

DC wanted to write stories for adolescents and ditch the upbeat, saccharine treatment for their licences that children find so appealing.

If that were true, they'd have let Alan Moore destroy the Charlton characters in Watchmen.
Or unleash his "Twilight of the Superheroes" on pretty much ALL the DC heroes.

Again, post-Crisis was still upbeat and enjoyable, particularly with the aforementioned Justice League "Bwahaha!!"-ing it up.

Children want to blindly worship heroes because it makes them feel safe about the world they live in while adolescents/teenagers want a vicarious experience with characters they can relate to. This is why Marvel dominates the market and why DC keeps sucking.

Limiting themselves to such small audiences is why this entire industry, including both DC and Marvel, has been in such deep trouble for so long.

They have these reboots like CoIE

COIE is not a reboot...

and for a few years they try to cater to the majority demographic but over time they get cold feet and they acquiesce to their excessively vocal minority fan base by farming the IP and rehashing the Silver Age Hero worship.

The "minority fanbase" wasn't asking for the #1 Silver Age icon, Barry Allen, back.
Unless you consider that fanbase to be made up of ONE PERSON: Geoff Johns.

DC needs to stop playing it safe and cut that Silver Age shit loose once and for all.

That would require cutting Geoff loose.
And God knows they wouldn't THINK of doing that...

Teenagers don't want to worship authority and that's who comic books should be written for. Marvel gets it and that's why DC has been playing catch up all these years.

Superhero comic books should be written for ALL ages, to maximize the potential audience. Disney Animation and Pixar get it and that's why this entire industry by comparison has been in the doldrums all these years.

"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."
— Walt Disney

[Herald]

another great post by Herald, if anyone's keeping score

Thanks!

[draco x]

The DCU didn't blatantly rip off S.H.I.E.L.D. and spell it A-R-G-U-S in 1986. (As mentioned by someone elsewhere, the only thing Dan and the Gang didn't do is give "Steve Trevor" an eyepatch...)

The general public were still allowed to be nigh-worshipful toward the heroes back in 1986. The Justice League wasn't made to be "Feared and hated by a world they've sworn to protect!" back in 1986. On that note...

Nobody instructed Mike W. Barr to write the Outsiders so as to "bring the X-Men to DC" in 1986, as DiDio specifically instructed Judd Winick to do in his Outsiders run.

And -- oh, yeah:
They weren't hiring '90s Marvel burnouts by the score because they put the guy who made Marvel crash and burn in the '90s in charge back in 1986.

The DCU was still highly distinguishable from Marvel post-Crisis, as demonstrated by JLA/Avengers. DC heroes were truly heroic and generally upbeat, and the public loved them. (Yes, Quicksilver, there IS a Flash Museum!) Not so nowadays; all the DC characters have to have the same miserable feet of clay that you get from the Marvelous Competition. If I wanted to read Marvel, I would read Marvel.



And that's part of the problem: They don't know what they're doing, other than they want to be Marvel-lite.

I always thought Doom Patrol was meant to be DC's X-Men actually.

[Lord Simian]

I always thought Doom Patrol was meant to be DC's X-Men actually.

Actually, I think you have it backwards: I'm pretty sure Doom Patrol was first, and X-men copied THEM. Like Oreos began as Hydrox ripoffs.

[Herald]

I always thought Doom Patrol was meant to be DC's X-Men actually.

What the Lord of the Monkeys said about who came first.

Also, the "Mutie!"-like ostracizing of the Doom Patrol never made sense to me. Kinda hard to justify railing against the likes of Elasti-Girl for their "weirdness" when your greatest superheroes are a Man of Steel with 7 flavors of vision and a shapeshifting Martian, and your most popular pin-up girl is an orange alien with no pupils in her green eyes, who may have evolved from cats.

[draco x]

Actually, I think you have it backwards: I'm pretty sure Doom Patrol was first, and X-men copied THEM. Like Oreos began as Hydrox ripoffs.

Yeah I was aware of that debate as to who debated first that began in the 60s.

[draco x]

A Superman that was still more powerful than practically any Marvel character outside the super-cosmic types, who still was a Swiss Army Knife of abilities. And he still didn't whine like a Marvel character, either. I'll take him!



1. And then he won the lottery.
Post-Crisis didn't really keep the DC luck down.

2. Yet the Flash Museum, temple of all DC speedster worship, still existed.
Again: Eat it, Quicksilver!



1. Guy Gardner wasn't new; he was created years before.

2. You know who was new at that time?? KILOWOG. A trustworthy GL, indeed.



Batman has been Marvel since 1939, with that sob story origin of his.





And she managed to best those Greek gods time and again while still being nominally mortal.
That's standard-issue DC right there.



Those guys were too fun-loving, too rambunctious, too "Bwahaha!!" to behave in the Miserable Marvel Manner. And it was WELL PAST awesome to behold.



They shoulda kept the League funny.



Tell that to Dan "Bring the X-Men to DC!" DiDio.



If that were true, they'd have let Alan Moore destroy the Charlton characters in Watchmen.
Or unleash his "Twilight of the Superheroes" on pretty much ALL the DC heroes.

Again, post-Crisis was still upbeat and enjoyable, particularly with the aforementioned Justice League "Bwahaha!!"-ing it up.



Limiting themselves to such small audiences is why this entire industry, including both DC and Marvel, has been in such deep trouble for so long.



COIE is not a reboot...



The "minority fanbase" wasn't asking for the #1 Silver Age icon, Barry Allen, back.
Unless you consider that fanbase to be made up of ONE PERSON: Geoff Johns.



That would require cutting Geoff loose.
And God knows they wouldn't THINK of doing that...



Superhero comic books should be written for ALL ages, to maximize the potential audience. Disney Animation and Pixar get it and that's why this entire industry by comparison has been in the doldrums all these years.

"You're dead if you aim only for kids. Adults are only kids grown up, anyway."
— Walt Disney

The thing is that Marvel and DC have been ripping each other for decades now and for the most part I don't have a real issue with that as I am way past used to it by now. The gripe I kind of have with the Didiocracy in particular is the fact that most of what they do creative-wise is based on tearing down what people like Denny O Neil, Kevin Dooley, Joe Quesada, Ron Marz, Chuck Dixon, etc have done before Didio came onboard. A lot of what Didio and co do are basically middle fingers to other writers and even the fans at times as they think that controversy and shock value equate to being interesting creative-wise. The funny thing I was never on the Hate Didio bandwagon originally until things like the Sue Dibney rape, the JLA mindwiping Batman, bringing back Barry Allen, Black Lantern Azrael, killing off Lian Harper and the New 52 hot mess made me realize that people who were criticizing him were right all along.