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Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby holtom2000 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:09 am

dairydead wrote:
The only person i know that keeps score is the Latino Review guy

Relation to the Simpsons comic book guy?

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby The Beast » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:20 am

What a mess, now I know how your mother feels when she cleans the "Carriage House" on wednesday afternoon. :groucho:
Herald wrote:A Superman that was still more powerful than practically any Marvel character outside the super-cosmic types, who still was a Swiss Army Knife of abilities. And he still didn't whine like a Marvel character, either. I'll take him! 8)

Just off the top of my head, Hulk, Thing, Juggernaut, Thor, She-Hulk, Strong Guy, Abomination, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Hercules and Ms Marvel could have given Byrne's Superman a run for his money. Same with his abilities that were paired down to the lowest levels since the 30's and nukes knocked the piss out of him. Sure he didn't have feet of clay, that's beyond the pale but Superman was still Marvelized during Byrne's run. They made him a kinder, gentler Flash Thompson with Super-Powers.
1. And then he won the lottery.
Post-Crisis didn't really keep the DC luck down.
2. Yet the Flash Museum, temple of all DC speedster worship, still existed.
Again: Eat it, Quicksilver! :P 8)

These guys aren't channeling an alternate universe, it was editorial mandate to abandon the adolescent tone for an all ages approach so Wally could be a feel good super hero again suitable for worship by children.
1. Guy Gardner wasn't new; he was created years before.
2. You know who was new at that time?? KILOWOG. A trustworthy GL, indeed.

Trustworthy is for Bronies and children. For the first time, Guy Gardner was the permanent, primary Green Lantern of sector 2814. Grasping at straws so soon? I thought you were better than that... :smt011
Batman has been Marvel since 1939, with that sob story origin of his. :P
Image

Indeed, he was Marvel before his time. Batman balled Julie and destroyed evil as he saw fit. He used to pack heat like Punisher but then Batman got “sanitized” for all ages. He became Superman with a mask and gadgets and a garish TV clown until guys like until O’Neal and Miller brought him back to life decades later.

More in line with his Marvel-esque Roots during the Golden Age when all Super Heroes were written for adolescents. That's why younger kids liked them and that's why Wertham stirred parent groups into a frenzy and the CCA ended everybody's fun. You want to blame somebody for the decline in the comic book industry then look no further than the Comics Code of Authority.
And she managed to best those Greek gods time and again while still being nominally mortal.
That's standard-issue DC right there. 8)

But the nominally mortal part was the Marvelization in effect to attract adolescent readers.
Those guys were too fun-loving, too rambunctious, too "Bwahaha!!" to behave in the Miserable Marvel Manner. And it was WELL PAST awesome to behold. 8)

Your perspective on Marvel comics is myopic to say the least. The Bwahaha era didn't start out as the complete farce it later devolved into. It used to be legitimate Super Hero action with a side of humour that was often based on the short comings of the team members and having fun at each other's expense. PG vs Wally = Thing vs Johnny, if Thing was a girl. Sometimes they really didn't like each other and often times they fought too. It was light hearted but still in the Marvel tradition of super groups that don't just click perfectly all the time.
They shoulda kept the funny in League to a minimum. :P

Fixed.
Tell that to Dan "Bring the X-Men to DC!" DiDio.

I wish he would, anything would be an improvement over Nu JL.
If that were true, they'd have let Alan Moore destroy the Charlton characters in Watchmen.
Or unleash his "Twilight of the Superheroes" on pretty much ALL the DC heroes.
Again, post-Crisis was still upbeat and enjoyable, particularly with the aforementioned Justice League "Bwahaha!!"-ing it up.

What does upbeat and enjoyable mean? Superman executed some people and dealt with that baggage for years? You keep bringing up the Bwahaha as all shits and giggles but you can’t recall the infighting, sadness and heart that book had. Maguire had some beautiful moments that made me deeply empathize with the characters just by how he drew their faces in times of agony and distress.

It was Fantastic but because it was slightly more upbeat than the Four, you want to discount the influence altogether? I say thee nay. :smt011
Limiting themselves to such small audiences is why this entire industry, including both DC and Marvel, has been in such deep trouble for so long.

Oh please, not this tired old fallacy again. Thanks to the CCA, Super Heroes aren’t for everyone anymore. Most kids prefer sports, music and activities that involve getting laid. The problem with the industry is they continue to pander to what they think everyone wants in a comic book when all they need to do is focus on telling good stories.
COIE is not a reboot...

What are you on about? It’s the fucking definition of a reboot. Comic books that reboot a continuity include an explanation for the reboot within the comic itself, such as merging parallel worlds and timelines together or destroying and recreating a universe from the beginning.

Burying your head in the sand and employing selective ignorance aren’t effective debate strategies. Well, it makes my job easier but you do yourself a real disservice.
The "minority fanbase" wasn't asking for the #1 Silver Age icon, Barry Allen, back.
Unless you consider that fanbase to be made up of ONE PERSON: Geoff Johns.

So we agree that DC farms the IP because it’s how the shareholders want them to play it safe? Good to know.
That would require cutting Geoff loose.
And God knows they wouldn't THINK of doing that...

I don’t know if that’s necessary when an editorial mandate in the right place would do, like, “Johns, get out of the trash.”
Superhero comic books should be written for ALL ages, to maximize the potential audience. Disney Animation and Pixar get it and that's why this entire industry by comparison has been in the doldrums all these years.

Oh no, not this nugget of wisdom from the boardroom again. I’m going to prove how everyone who thinks like you is wrong, pay close attention. Maximizing the potential audience is impossible once you try to appeal to all ages because...

Teenagers and adolescents at heart, like me, don’t want to read comic books that are appropriate for children. I didn’t buy Superman and other DC comics regularly until the Bronze Age just before CoIE. I was ten years old and I thought DC was for babies and Marvel was cool because it was for older kids with heroes that didn’t always win and villains who didn’t always lose. You think I was the only ten year old in the world in the 80's who felt that way? :roll:

The shareholder mentality ignores the fact that all ages material doesn’t exist, at least not from the bottom up as you propose. Pixar is so successful because they pioneered a new technology in a new genre and although their characters are designed to look appealing to children the storylines are written for adolescents. Anyone who looked up to an older brother can tell you the only way to get true all ages appeal is to aim at teenagers because younger kids are always in a hurry to grow up anyways and the semi-taboo nature of teenage content is what makes it cool.

The only thing DC is doing wrong at this point is some of their books are too padded and they farm the IP too much trying to make every possible DC fan happy at the same time with some of their titles. But some of their books are the best they’ve ever been been and as much as I’m butthurt over the direction they’re taking with Superman and lack of cohesion in the overall continuity, I have to admit there’s plenty more that I like about the DCnU and just about the same amount I was indifferent to when I bought DC titles regularly.

I stopped buying pre-Flashpoint continuity altogether after Morrison’s Final Crisis but I came back after five years for the Nu52 and I’m still here. DC can’t make us both happy and I’m glad they’re trying harder to get my money rather than yours. :wink:

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby Herald » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:37 am

Ntikrst wrote:What a mess


Like '90s animated Batman, I say:
*Kevin Conroy voice* "Let's take it by the numbers... nice and easy..." 8)

Just off the top of my head, Hulk, Thing, Juggernaut, Thor, She-Hulk, Strong Guy, Abomination, Beta Ray Bill, Gladiator, Hercules and Ms Marvel could have given Byrne's Superman a run for his money.


*yawn* Half of those people CAN'T FLY. Superman heaves this fight into the stratosphere, and they start sweating bullets. :P

And that's ignoring Superman's speed and heat vision. :P :P

And Hulk can't even beat Batman. Oh, a guy named Bruce proved to be "Strongest One There Is!!" that day... but it wasn't BANNER!! :P :P :P

Same with his abilities that were paired down to the lowest levels since the 30's and nukes knocked the piss out of him.


And he still got the job done.

Sure he didn't have feet of clay, that's beyond the pale


And that, above all else, is what made him NOT Marvelized.
As opposed to Nuperman, currently doing his best mopey Spidey impression... :roll:

but Superman was still Marvelized during Byrne's run. They made him a kinder, gentler Flash Thompson with Super-Powers.


Flash Thompson WISHES he had 7 flavors of vision. :P

These guys aren't channeling an alternate universe


They are NOW...

it was editorial mandate to abandon the adolescent tone for an all ages approach so Wally could be a feel good super hero again suitable for worship by children.


"All ages", which is why one of the early issues had Wally sleeping with Speed Demon's girlfriend...

Trustworthy is for Bronies and children.


"Silly Rabbit, Idealism Is for Kids!" :roll: :P

Trustworthiness is part of being an upstanding adult. Considering your persistent love of adolescence, it's no surprise that you don't understand this just yet. :P

More to the point, the DCU was built on ideals like trustworthiness.
If you want rampant cynicism, Marvel is over there.

For the first time, Guy Gardner was the permanent, primary Green Lantern of sector 2814.


John Stewart would have words with thee...

Grasping at straws so soon? I thought you were better than that... :smt011


MY house is made of BRICKS, Mr. Wolf. 8)
Keep on huffing and puffing. :P

Indeed, he was Marvel before his time. Batman balled Julie and destroyed evil as he saw fit. He used to pack heat like Punisher but then Batman got “sanitized” for all ages.


Batman stopped carrying guns LONG before any sanitization. Kane realized that it didn't fit with the character, and frankly, that was a good call.

If you want Bat-Punisher, go read the reign of Az-Bats during Knightquest and KnightsEnd; he was specifically created as a backhand slap to people like you who don't get that Bruce Wayne is not Frank Castle. :P

He became Superman with a mask and gadgets and a garish TV clown until guys like until O’Neal and Miller brought him back to life decades later.

More in line with his Marvel-esque Roots during the Golden Age when all Super Heroes were written for adolescents. That's why younger kids liked them and that's why Wertham stirred parent groups into a frenzy and the CCA ended everybody's fun. You want to blame somebody for the decline in the comic book industry then look no further than the Comics Code of Authority.


So did the industry close down once the CCA was founded??

And after all these years since the CCA stopped ruling the day, and we have Catwoman mounting Batman on-panel like "adolescents" want, where are the throngs of people running back to comics?? It's still almost entirely the same ol' adult fanboys buying these books.

But the nominally mortal part was the Marvelization in effect to attract adolescent readers.


No, putting an attractive woman in a star-spangled bustier was to attract adolescent readers. And you have William Moulton Marston to blame for that, back in 1940.

Your perspective on Marvel comics is myopic to say the least.


1. So you claim. And yet, you haven't been demonstrating how much fun, Fun, FUN Marvel is in comparison. Even ol' Deadpool is the way he is because he's a seriously disturbed little man, not because he's simply a fun guy, like Ted Kord.

2. Talk about my perspective, YOU are the guy framing Marvel as being for adolescents, and apparently, no one else. Even I don't go THAT far. :P

The Bwahaha era didn't start out as the complete farce it later devolved into. It used to be legitimate Super Hero action with a side of humour that was often based on the short comings of the team members and having fun at each other's expense. PG vs Wally = Thing vs Johnny, if Thing was a girl. Sometimes they really didn't like each other and often times they fought too. It was light hearted but still in the Marvel tradition of super groups that don't just click perfectly all the time.


It was light-hearted... which is precisely what makes it NOT Marvel, because Marvel wouldn't alleviate their Wangst with such a thing.

Fixed.


If you can't stand the lightness, get outta the DCU. :P

I wish he would, anything would be an improvement over Nu JL.


As I mentioned, Nu JL already gave you "Feared and Hated by a World They've Sworn to Protect!" And Cyborg is doing his best Forge impersonation for you! What more do you want from him?? Sage?? "Douglock"?! :P

What does upbeat and enjoyable mean?


Well, since you're obviously a Marvel fan, it's no surprise you're unacquainted with those concepts. :P

Superman executed some people and dealt with that baggage for years?


He also has the likes of Mr. Mxyzptlk.

Image

You keep bringing up the Bwahaha as all shits and giggles but you can’t recall the infighting, sadness and heart that book had. Maguire had some beautiful moments that made me deeply empathize with the characters just by how he drew their faces in times of agony and distress.


You THINK I can't recall that. I'm highlighting what makes the DCU not the 616, which is that -- DESPITE the problems that DC heroes deal with -- they still look "Up in the sky!", not "Down to the ground..." like Marvel heroes do. DC heroes RISE ABOVE their problems; Marvel heroes let their problems grind them down.

It was Fantastic but because it was slightly more upbeat than the Four, you want to discount the influence altogether? I say thee nay. :smt011


You discount things by saying that it was only "slightly" more upbeat. :P

Oh please, not this tired old fallacy again.


As long as comics are straining mightily to even sell 150,000 copies to a increasingly small audience of fanboy adults like us, it's far from a "tired old fallacy." Call me when all these series sell 1 million every month again, like they did when they were ALL ages.

Thanks to the CCA, Super Heroes aren’t for everyone anymore.


Thanks to nothing but their ability to tell stories for a general audience, Disney and Pixar movies ARE for everyone and make excellent sales.

Most kids prefer sports, music and activities that involve getting laid.


I don't want to know how old the kids were that you asked about that last one... :smt011

The problem with the industry is they continue to pander to what they think everyone wants in a comic book when all they need to do is focus on telling good stories.

What are you on about? It’s the fucking definition of a reboot.


No, it isn't.
Most characters experienced NO REBOOT WHATSOEVER.

Take Firestorm. Just before COIE, he graduated from high school. After COIE, he went right on to college. NO REBOOT.

The Justice League wasn't rebooted. The Detroit League kept right on truckin'. NO REBOOT.

And -- oh, yeah -- YOU mentioned the Wally West Flash post-COIE, right?? So, was the FLASH concept rebooted?? Of course not, because if it was, Wally wouldn't have been the Flash, trying to honor the legacy of Barry Allen!! You know, the Flash who died DURING the Crisis!!

WALLY being the Flash, as YOU said??
Barry NOT booted back to life post-COIE??
Things continuing on from Barry's demise??

CLEARLY.
NO.
REBOOT.

GOTCHA!!
"Sometimes, it's so easy, I'm ashamed of myself!" 8)

Burying your head in the sand and employing selective ignorance aren’t effective debate strategies.


Then you should stop doing that, and go re-read your early Wally West Flash comics to remind yourself! 8)

So we agree that DC farms the IP because it’s how the shareholders want them to play it safe? Good to know.


Geoff Johns isn't a shareholder. Next time, read the fine print before signing. :P

I don’t know if that’s necessary when an editorial mandate in the right place would do, like, “Johns, get out of the trash.”


Yeah, like they're going to tell their Golden Boy, the Chief Creative Officer, the one guy they have whose books will sell regardless of pitiful quality, that he can't bring back his Silver Age buddies. And you say I'M not in touch with reality... :roll:

Oh no, not this nugget of wisdom from the boardroom again. I’m going to prove how everyone who thinks like you is wrong, pay close attention. Maximizing the potential audience is impossible once you try to appeal to all ages because...

Teenagers and adolescents at heart, like me, don’t want to read comic books that are appropriate for children. I didn’t buy Superman and other DC comics regularly until the Bronze Age just before CoIE.


That's nice for YOU.
But plenty of others DID.

I was ten years old and I thought DC was for babies and Marvel was cool because it was for older kids with heroes that didn’t always win and villains who didn’t always lose.


And that's another thing that separates the REAL DC Universe from the Marvelized DiDio-era DCU! Thank you for your contribution! :-D

You think I was the only ten year old in the world in the 80's who felt that way? :roll:


Luckily, 10-year-olds like you weren't the only people in the world, then. :P

Notice how everything you've been saying is based on "Me ME ME!!", and what people like "ME!!" want. It's precisely that sort of selfish thinking that keeps this industry's sales low, all dependent solely on people like you YOU YOU. And you claim I have myopia... :roll:

If the industry manages to open up to a WIDER audience, DC and Marvel won't have to keep using increasingly pathetic events, variant covers, and other cheap gimmicks, only to FAIL to sell over 200,000 copies a month.

The shareholder mentality ignores the fact that all ages material doesn’t exist, at least not from the bottom up as you propose. Pixar is so successful because they pioneered a new technology in a new genre and although their characters are designed to look appealing to children the storylines are written for adolescents.


No, the storylines are written for ALL ages, from kids to adults.

Anyone who looked up to an older brother can tell you the only way to get true all ages appeal is to aim at teenagers because younger kids are always in a hurry to grow up anyways and the semi-taboo nature of teenage content is what makes it cool.


Again, I like how you myopically ignore the fact that ADULTS EXIST.
*facepalm*

Believe it or not, FAR more ADULTS are buying these comics than the "adolescents" you keep harping about. Even DC's little survey demonstrated that. And many adults don't like the sort of puerile stuff that adolescents like.

The only thing DC is doing wrong at this point is some of their books are too padded and they farm the IP too much trying to make every possible DC fan happy at the same time with some of their titles.


If they were trying to make so many DC fans happy, fan faves like Wally West and Cass Cain wouldn't be MIA. :roll:

And that's just the tip of the iceberg on how much they're NOT trying to make fans other than themselves happy...

I stopped buying pre-Flashpoint continuity altogether after Morrison’s Final Crisis but I came back after five years for the Nu52 and I’m still here


Five years, huh??

Final Crisis: 2008
Nu52: 2011

This time, do the math.
Go ahead. I'll wait. :P

DC can’t make us both happy and I’m glad they’re trying harder to get my money rather than yours. :wink:


And again, it's all "Me ME ME!!" from you.

The industry needs to get rid of this "secret clubhouse" mentality in order to thrive again.
Last edited by Herald on Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby fieldy snuts » Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:42 am

Herald are you really expecting anyone to read that shit? It actually took time to scroll past it.

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby holtom2000 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:52 am

fieldy snuts wrote:Herald are you really expecting anyone to read that shit? It actually took time to scroll past it.

lol ok that made me laugh

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby Herald » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:20 am

fieldy snuts wrote:Herald are you really expecting anyone to read that shit?


YES.
Now stop whining like a Marvel hero and READ IT. :P

I repeat:
*Kevin Conroy voice* "Let's take it by the numbers... nice and easy..."

It actually took time to scroll past it.


END KEY, m***a'-f***a'!!
Do you have it??!!


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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby dairydead » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:35 am

you could definitely condense it
The Firelord to Hawk's Galactus

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby Amoebas » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:45 am

dairydead wrote:you could definitely condense it

Why bother? In every Herald vs (enter name here) battle - the winner will always be the other guy just because they're not Herald.

So congrats Ntikrs!

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby dairydead » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:52 am

Amoebas wrote:Why bother? In every Herald vs (enter name here) battle - the winner will always be the other guy just because they're not Herald.

So congrats Ntikrs!


i dunno, I've been conflicted. Nkrist's anti-intellectualism, mean spirit, and overt racism has made Herald look almost charming in comparison.
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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:57 am

dairydead wrote:
The only person i know that keeps score is the Latino Review guy


:lol:
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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby Herald » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:03 am

Amoebas wrote:Why bother? In every Herald vs (enter name here) battle - the winner will always be the other guy just because they're not Herald.

So congrats Ntikrs!


Good to know that you need to boil a debate down to a popularity contest. It's no surprise that your brain couldn't take the strain of properly evaluating the arguments. :P

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby dairydead » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:19 am

Herald wrote:
Good to know that you need to boil a debate down to a popularity contest. It's no surprise that your brain couldn't take the strain of properly evaluating the arguments. :P

its less that his brain couldn't take the strain, more that your arguments are silly and pointless most of the time.
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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby Herald » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:21 am

dairydead wrote:its less that his brain couldn't take the strain


He has yet to prove that.

more that your arguments are silly and pointless most of the time.


EVERYONE'S arguments are "silly and pointless" here.
It's a comic book message board.

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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby dairydead » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:23 am

Herald wrote:
He has yet to prove that.



EVERYONE'S arguments are "silly and pointless" here.
It's a comic book message board.

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:smt102
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Re: Hmmm. What *IS* DC up to ? ?

Postby Amoebas » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:52 am

Herald wrote:
Good to know that you need to boil a debate down to a popularity contest. It's no surprise that your brain couldn't take the strain of properly evaluating the arguments. :P

I don't "need" to boil anything to popularity. I barely know Ntkirst.

But I do know your posting history/persona and your stoic vitriol against a man who's never once harmed you in any way. So yeah, it's just become easier over the years to skip anything you have to say and announce you as the loser. :P

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