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Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby alaska1125 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:45 pm

Attitudes like this are killing comics for me. Granted, I'm a grumpy old man, but I'll just keep digging into the back issues.
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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby holtom2000 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:46 pm

When his next book is late this Twitter tirade will be why

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Re: RE: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Con

Postby IvCNuB4 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:53 pm

FBtron wrote:So what I got from this is that Jim Lee is a pedantic asshole.



Or that Jude has waaaayy too much free time these days :lol:
Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: RE: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Con

Postby Stephen Day » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:14 am

IvCNuB4 wrote:

Or that Jude has waaaayy too much free time these days :lol:


My vote goes for both. :P
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RE: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Sally Strange » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:23 am

I'm just glad I quit buying DC comics before their utter contempt for their fanbase became so apparent. (Late 90s, in case you're wondering).

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RE: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Brian Lynch » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:13 am

"Dear fans: Why didn't you just assume that we weren't giving you all the context? What are you, stupid? Buy my book! Best, Jim."

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby achilles » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:45 am

Two names, same person! :lol:
Achilles is the kind of evil that hollows out a volcano for a lair, and sends killer robots after his enemies.---Lord Simian

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Mr. Log » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:49 am

Wow.

Until now, I may have criticized Lee's work, but I never thought anything bad about him as a person.

That was patronizing, insulting, ignorant, manipulative, and ironic. I say that as someone who wasn't even really in the anti-Harley-script crowd. However, since he decided to address it to everyone, along with the hashtag #duh to start things off, I feel that I get to say something on this.

I've been reading comic books for much longer than Mr. Lee has been creating them. I think it's safe to say that I understand the medium by now. More than that, I've been reading books, watching movies, experiencing storytelling in a number of different forms besides comic books. I understand context. I'm one of the mythic 45 year-olds that he's writing for, after all.

The fact that he failed to address the original issue is pretty funny, inviting people to ascribe more personal interpretation which is exactly what he's saying not to do. What about the people that don't know what he's referring to? "Why is he lecturing me like I'm in third grade for no reason?" Are they just supposed to take this misguided lecture and move on, or should they be critical thinkers, which he seems to want, and go find out what he's referring to?

Then there's the method of the sermon delivery. I have to thank Mr. Lee for once again proving that Twitter is absolutely not the the delivery system for this kind of message. Besides the ridiculous length, he chopped it up into segments (or to analogize, panels) without using a consistent hashtag to let people know that they are a related whole. This pretty much guarantees that they will be used without the rest in order (ie the context) which means missing the necessary interpretation. (Or perhaps he did that intentionally, as an ironic artistic choice. In that case, bravo! He hasn't shown that kind of creative thinking in years.)

Finally, there's the base problem of blaming the receiver for the lack of understanding in the communicator's message. When this many people get the wrong message, and when this many people point out exactly why they got the wrong message, and how it could have been delivered effectively, then a strong case must be made for blaming this on the party sending the message and not the audience. This little rant only amplified that problem instead of fixing it. Well done.

Mr. Lee, thank you for the unnecessary and uninvited lecture. It was very revealing. I learned a lot about your worth as a person and what you think of your audience. I'm afraid you must now be relegated to that pile of talented artists that I couldn't care less about anymore.

PS: Your Superman redesign is horrific.

#GFY

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:01 am

Jim Lee's always been a bit of a cunt, took you guys this long to notice??

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Psivage » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:13 am

I really don't care all I want is to see Harley tits and snatch.
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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Mr. Log » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:18 am

Victorian Squid wrote:Jim Lee's always been a bit of a cunt, took you guys this long to notice??


Honestly, I never really paid attention to him before. Looking back now, though, yeah I can see that.

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Mr. Log » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:18 am

Psivage wrote:I really don't care all I want is to see Harley tits and snatch.


That's what Google is for.

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:23 am

Log-Man wrote:
Honestly, I never really paid attention to him before. Looking back now, though, yeah I can see that.


It's true, he was doing his best to make sure nobody missed the fact this time! :lol:

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Re: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:25 am

Could psivage actually be Jimmy Palmiotti??

They have very similar tastes. :lol:

post10194832.html?hilit=palmiotti#p10194832

Ever since this "talent hunt" broke the news I've been half convinced the whole deal is just to provide JP with a new spank bank.

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RE: Jim Lee Speaks on Harleygate, Teaches Fans About Context

Postby Selena Mead » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:48 am

Jim Lee I used to respect you. Your art inspired mine for many years especially the way you drew Batman, Poison Ivy, and Superman. However your actions and redesigns in the reboot and your treatment of DC characters has left me cold. The issue with the Harley Quinn contest is NOT the bloody tub scene! It's the fact that all four scenes do NOTHING to reflect Harley Quinn's character or explain who she is! It's a bland attempt at comedy and gives the idea that Harley is just a depressed woman with no laughter in most of her life. This is not just a reaction to Harley! You have allowed this to be done in both costume redesigns and the new origins and stories to international iconic characters like Wonder Woman, Hawkman, Poison Ivy, Starfire, Wondergirl, Superboy, and Raven (just to name a few) you have missed the very heart, soul, and purpose of why these characters were created, who their fans are, why they are who they are, who they are and what they stand for, and why they’ve been a success for decades! Your reboot has missed all those points and you have changed them for the worst! When you redesign and reboot characters, especially ones as iconic as DC’s, you must know who they are and why they’re successful! You keep the elements that made them unique! The reboot refused to do that on every character but Batman, Superman (mostly), Animalman and Aquaman. It’s clear you have picked and chosen favorites. You chose who got to stay themselves and keep what made them iconic and who didn’t. You have a responsibility to show the world who these characters are and why they’re successful despite how you feel about them! Changing them based on your tastes is not what you are to do! You are to embrace these characters and show the world who they are DESPITE your own personal tastes and how ridiculous they may seem. These characters were NOT created by you and it is your job to make sure their costumes, stories, and origins follow who they are and what they are meant to do. You have failed at this, both Dan and you. I’m sorry to say. You let your own personal judgment and views cloud your views and cast shadows of change on the DC Universe that have both lost the heart and soul of these characters and pushed away fans. Each character is unique and has a certain draw to them in comics. You and Dan had a job to secure that! When working with characters in any works of fiction, you must treat these characters as if they are real! Novels, TV, movies, comics, paintings, drawings, plays, it doesn’t matter! In the world of fiction these characters are real and you must treat them as such with the utmost respect! Yet you and Dan failed to do so. That is what the New 52 rage is all about! That is why people are angry over the panels! Suicide and the bathtub have nothing to do with it! It’s the lack of understanding and supporting both your fans and characters, resulting in changing these characters origins, personalities, looks and everything based on your tastes that have launched all of this hate and outrage towards DC! You are heads of a company! You cater to your consumers! You do no cater to yourselves! You all promise after Flashpoint that the New Earth timeline would be relaunched with little changes so new and old readers would be able to start over with everything intact. Everything before was to be launched to issue one and the past twenty plus years would be explained! You failed to do that and you betrayed your fans, creators, and characters. Once you realize that truth, then maybe you can take steps to make amends. Stop blaming fans for “overreacting” or being “wrong”! You are a business and your core fans: their needs and views should come first! What they feel should be understood and respected! Remember they are the consumers of your product! You failed to do that in the New 52. Constantly blaming you core fan base and telling them they’re wrong for speaking out based on views and feelings on characters many have supported and loved all their lives is a poor and unethical business move on your part. Once you accept that what you’ve done to the DC Universe has hurt both your business and your relationship with the fans, then maybe you can take the steps to fix this! Until then you will continue to see all this hate and outrage over your choices. Every action has a consequence. I say this as a fan of your work; you are dealing with the consequences of your actions. Defend your actions all you like, but you reap the seeds you have sewn.

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