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Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicate?

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:48 pm

Grayson wrote:
I can't really say that unpowering Captain Cold is the only reason that I decided to pick it up in trade but it was the deciding factor. I have been reading Flash since the relaunch and I can honestly say that internalizing the rogue's powers was easily the dumbest move that was made in the series...unless you count Barry's relationship with Patty Spivot instead of Iris West...so obviously I will jump at the chance to see somebody undo it.


Ha! Man, I could just see Johns' face twitching when he saw how the New 52 Rogues Gallery was looking -- no way in hell the Chief Operating Officer was gonna let Leonard Snart run around without a cold gun, as soon as he got around to writing Snart again

That just wasn't going to happen
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby Mr. Log » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:48 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:No, you are totally correct -- that's how it happens. It's a reasonably valid excuse, and again, I get it: Villains. Dangerous.

But at the same time...that's always the excuse. The villains are always willing to go farther, do more, experiment more.

So, at some point, the balance becomes out of whack and you have three teams of Justice League, the Teen Titans, Nightwing, etc., all getting embarrassed.


Yeah, the balancing factor was always supposed to be intelligence and heart for the heroes, but when they don't have that...


And why the fuck did they give Cold innate powers in the first place?? This sounds like a giant "We fucked that one up. Somebody fix it." :lol:

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:54 pm

Log-Man wrote:
Yeah, the balancing factor was always supposed to be intelligence and heart for the heroes, but when they don't have that...


And why the fuck did they give Cold innate powers in the first place?? This sounds like a giant "We fucked that one up. Somebody fix it." :lol:


Trust me on this one, as someone who has read every issue of New 52 Justice League and Justice League of America: Pretty much the entirety of these runs makes you seriously question the collective intelligence of The World's Greatest Superheroes
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby HNutz » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:54 pm

While we're on the topic, why didn't Deathstorm depower the JLA instead of imprisoning them?

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:58 pm

HNutz wrote:While we're on the topic, why didn't Deathstorm depower the JLA instead of imprisoning them?


I'm going to assume that's because then we wouldn't have been treated to seeing the Firestorm Matrix doing something so bizarre, I'm still trying to understand just WTF it is doing and how it works -- I'm totally serious, I have read that issue three times and I understand the prison, but I have no idea how the hell it works like it does
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby Mr. Log » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:02 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Trust me on this one, as someone who has read every issue of New 52 Justice League and Justice League of America: Pretty much the entirety of these runs makes you seriously question the collective intelligence of The World's Greatest Superheroes


Sadly, that's what I felt every time a peeked in. It's a an old formula that I despise more than any other: make the villains more dangerous by making the heroes morons. Conversely, you can have the heroes succeed by suddenly lobotomizing the villains. (That's how Dr. Doom is usually defeated, it seems.)

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby syxxpakk » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:08 pm

This is fascinating. Most of the time the DC-complaints are "The heroes are too grim and do unheroic things!" But here, ESF is calling for Firestorm to do them! :shock:
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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:24 pm

Log-Man wrote:
Sadly, that's what I felt every time a peeked in. It's a an old formula that I despise more than any other: make the villains more dangerous by making the heroes morons. Conversely, you can have the heroes succeed by suddenly lobotomizing the villains. (That's how Dr. Doom is usually defeated, it seems.)


Yeah. I don't even think Johns realizes how much he does it or how much it cripples his runs -- I'm not saying Johns is a good writer or a bad writer. I'm just saying that the stories he writes, anymore, are so predictable if you've read his work in years past, you pretty much know what's coming with regard to the characters. He might slip a curve in there from time to time, but Forever Evil reads like Blackest Night which reads like Sinestro Corps War which reads like Infinite Crisis and GL: Rebirth, etc., etc

In other words: Initial threat dupes superheroes, superheroes appear to rally but then find out the initial threat was more dangerous than they realized, superheroes are staggering but appear to make up some ground before an even bigger threat than the initial threat appears in the final two issues

Go back and look at Johns' stuff, if you don't believe me
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:27 pm

syxxpakk wrote:This is fascinating. Most of the time the DC-complaints are "The heroes are too grim and do unheroic things!" But here, ESF is calling for Firestorm to do them! :shock:


Ha! Man, if I had to pull the string about my complaints with DC...it's not really about that, for me, right now. I looked back and I have read a ton of New 52 stuff. But to me, the single-biggest problem I encounter with the books I'm reading is, as a whole, you seriously have to question the competence of the heroes

I'm not reading all of the books, and I'm betting some of the ones I'm not reading don't have this problem.

I just have a lousy track record with the New 52 stuff I'm reading where the heroes are just not very good at their volunteer jobs
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby syxxpakk » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:37 pm

Let me ask you this: let's say Firestorm could do that so he does.

What then?

Does Superman become a weird sci-fi romance book? After all, Firestorm has saved the world from all villains with superpowers.
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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby fieldy snuts » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:07 pm

I hated Deathstorm during Blackest Night. I hate him even more now.

What I find funny is that in the Darkseid one-shot he states the heroes of the DCnU were too "extreme and violent" for him to deal with in a fight :lol:

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:42 am

syxxpakk wrote:Let me ask you this: let's say Firestorm could do that so he does.

What then?

Does Superman become a weird sci-fi romance book? After all, Firestorm has saved the world from all villains with superpowers.


I guess I read more along the lines of "precedence matters."

People laugh at the Silver Age, and sometimes, rightfully so. But there was a sweet spot as it merged into the Bronze Age where, to my way of thinking, you had the right amount of balance -- the Good Guys and the Bad Guys had an equal chance of winning a street fight. There was balance.

For instance: We accept that, in comic books, that...say...Hydra's not going to detonate 10 nuclear bombs in Manhattan, killing every superhero that matters. We do. We make that concession. We concede that, for example, Batman can run toward guys with guns and knives and not get shot and stabbed.

When you lose "The Balance," it throws off much of the suspension of disbelief that, IMO, you have to have to read comics.

One of my favorite books is DC's digital series based on the video game "Injustice." In that one, Superman goes a little crazy after Metropolis gets nuked and Lois Lane and his unborn kid are killed by him through a plan of the Joker.

But in that series, Superman uses all of his power to stop an invasion of Darkseid's Parademon's -- uses all of the "Flash Speed" and "Hulk Strength", etc., that he has, and ends the war in, like, 10 seconds or whatever. Kills them all.

Now, again: You can do that. You absolutely can tell that story.

But when you do, you've totally lost "The Balance." There are no more stories to be told with Superman and the Prankster and Terra Man and Toyman. You've changed the narrative entirely.

That's what Johns has done for a majority of his DC stories that I -- again, this is just me and my way of thinking -- don't like: He makes it so the villains are so good at what they do and the heroes are so much less, it truly lessens the enjoyment.

I don't need the heroes to win every single time -- for instance, the best book I read yesterday featured a hero doing his best against a supervillain and coming up short. It happens, and will happen.

But when Johns is at his worst...it's just not enjoyable, sometimes.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby The Beast » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:12 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Why, of course he is, my friend. Of course he is.


Then how's he supposed to counter JQ's actions?

I'm not going to defend FE in particular because I'm not that big a fan of how things are being executed, i.e. it seems to be ghost filler for the next event and Johns pads his storylines all the time but I am a fan of celebrating the villain that DC has been doing for the last few years.

Sorry that it's not your cup of tea. :smt102

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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby outsider » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:56 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:Yeah. I don't even think Johns realizes how much he does it or how much it cripples his runs -- I'm not saying Johns is a good writer or a bad writer. I'm just saying that the stories he writes, anymore, are so predictable if you've read his work in years past, you pretty much know what's coming with regard to the characters. He might slip a curve in there from time to time, but Forever Evil reads like Blackest Night which reads like Sinestro Corps War which reads like Infinite Crisis and GL: Rebirth, etc., etc
That's why I've stopped buying anything he's writing, even the trades. His work really does seem like the same product with different packaging.
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Re: Do Johnny Quick and Atomica even need the Crime Syndicat

Postby holtom2000 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:06 pm

How long will Johns basically direct the DCU? I am getting tired of his same story told over and over and over .... we get it you like villains

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