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nietoperz
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Postby nietoperz » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:14 am

john lewis wrote:Depends though. One, he only kills those who probably already have killed and aren't innocent and, secondly, one can make the claim he's killing so someone else, who may be less experienced, more insane, or have other problems, isn't.


Neither of those arguments hold any water for me, I'm afraid.
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Postby MoneyMelon » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:24 am

nietoperz wrote:That's kind of why I've always hated the character. Murder is never something to be celebrated.

That's what makes Garth Ennis' MAX series so good.

He's anything but celebrated. They show him for what he is without making excuses for him.

The key to making it work is that the people he kills are a thousand times worse than him. The Slavers arc (my favorite arc of the series) made the bad guys so horrible that you really wanted to see them get what was coming to them.
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Postby Keb » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:30 pm

MoneyMelon wrote:The key to making it work is that the people he kills are a thousand times worse than him. The Slavers arc (my favorite arc of the series) made the bad guys so horrible that you really wanted to see them get what was coming to them.
Still doesn't justify killing someone. It's like that show Dexter. It's so morally wrong that people like it.
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Postby Zenguru » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:38 pm

nietoperz wrote:That's kind of why I've always hated the character. Murder is never something to be celebrated.
I don't know that the character is about a celebration of murder. Perhaps a case could be made for glorification, though. But I think an intelligent writer's purpose with the Punisher is merely to explore the dark underbelly of fiction. These things exist, and have existed, in our lives for ages. It's never...comfortable...to see them displayed on paper. Or other mediums, for that matter.

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Postby AaronW » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:57 pm

I never have seen the attraction to the Punisher.

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Postby Lord Simian » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:38 pm

Aaron_W wrote:I never have seen the attraction to the Punisher.


I have. He's a FANTASTIC villain.

Oh, you meant as a hero? Me neither. :D
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Postby superfictious » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:32 pm

I think one of the most successful things Millar did in CW was to parallel Cap's questionable decisions with Tony's when the anti-reg's enlisted the help of the Punisher. When Castle killed those villians in cold blood, Cap lost any moral leverage.

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Postby Lord Simian » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:39 pm

Black_Kryptonian wrote:I think one of the most successful things Millar did in CW was to parallel Cap's questionable decisions with Tony's when the anti-reg's enlisted the help of the Punisher. When Castle killed those villians in cold blood, Cap lost any moral leverage.


Right until Cap beat the hell outta Castle. Cap doesn't need THAT kind of help. :D
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Postby superfictious » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:44 pm

Lord Simian wrote:Right until Cap beat the hell outta Castle. Cap doesn't need THAT kind of help. :D


Castle's semi-erotic man-crush on Cap took some of the oomph out of that scene.

It was still fun, though. :lol:

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Postby Lord Simian » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:47 pm

Black_Kryptonian wrote:Castle's semi-erotic man-crush on Cap took some of the oomph out of that scene.

It was still fun, though. :lol:


It DID take some of the oopmh.

But not the meaning. Cap said FUCK YOU CASTLE. :D
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Postby Severed Djed » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:06 pm

Aaron_W wrote:I never have seen the attraction to the Punisher.


I can trace my declining interest in Marvel to the point where they started to market him as a hero.

Not as a protagonist, but a hero.

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Postby Severed Djed » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:09 pm

Black_Kryptonian wrote:I think one of the most successful things Millar did in CW was to parallel Cap's questionable decisions with Tony's when the anti-reg's enlisted the help of the Punisher. When Castle killed those villians in cold blood, Cap lost any moral leverage.


The problem I had with that scene is that it requires me to believe that Castle is so stupid that he would open up on white-flag bearing villains in front of an assembly of good guys and not think he'd get taken down for it.

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Postby superfictious » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:12 pm

Severed Djed wrote:The problem I had with that scene is that it requires me to believe that Castle is so stupid that he would open up on white-flag bearing villains in front of an assembly of good guys and not think he'd get taken down for it.


Applying logic to CW results in shortness of breath and sometimes seizures. Think about the kewl scenes instead.

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Postby Severed Djed » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:29 pm

Black_Kryptonian wrote:Applying logic to CW results in shortness of breath and sometimes seizures. Think about the kewl scenes instead.


I've tried. It doesn't work.

Like everytime I think about Cap's kewl escape scene in #1 I can't help but think that SHIELD is trying to arrest him for refusing to follow a law that hasn't been enacted yet.

It goes downhill from there.

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Postby Thunderstorm » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:42 pm

I never liked The Punisher, but I wish he were real sometimes.

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