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Justice League #8

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Grayson » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:34 pm

Tee-Roy'd wrote:If you really think about it though going back want really change anything, because the titles that were good before the change are still mostly good and the titles that were bad before the change are still bad.

Batman and his line up of book are as good if not better than before the DCnU took effect. Same thing can be said for the Green Lantern line.


I have been arguing something similar but I have been using it against the relaunch. Basically most of the new 52 books that are good are all books that could have existed before the relaunch. The Batman family of books, Aquaman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, the Green Lantern books all could have existed without the relaunch and they would have benefited from being able to exist in a universe with familiar and likable characters.

Justice League was and had been one of DC's worst books before the change and even though it's bad right now it is no where near as bad as before.


I disagree. As bad as things were before, you still had familiar and likable characters. Now you have characters who look similar to the Justice League but behave like elitist snobs while the title itself is going nowhere. Plus, before the relaunch we still had Wally West, the JSA, and happily married characters.

If things went back to the way they were before we would lose really good books like Animal Man and Swamp Thing that didn't exist before the change over to DCnU.


Swamp Thing easily could have started at any time after Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Same could be said for Animal Man. Nothing that is happening in either of those titles couldn't have happened in the proper DCU.

So while yes some of the things right now are pretty crappy with DC's current line of books, but just because some are bad doesn't mean the entire line should be scrapped and then put back into the same stagnant, stale, and boring books we had before.


If this relaunch has taught us anything, it's that any book can become stagnant, stale, and boring if you don't put a writer who understands and/or cares about the characters he/she is writing. We didn't need the relaunch to reinvigorate Aquaman, we just needed a guy who understood a way to show the fans that the only reason he was as bad as he was, is because the fans looked at him that way. For as terrible as Johns had made the Justice League, he has breathed new life into Aquaman.

Snyder and Lemire have created an epic story in Swamp Thing and Animal Man but they didn't need the relaunch to do it because they understand something about the characters and their world that makes them great.

Now look at Scott Lobdell. You want to tell me that any of the Teen Titans or Starfire are better off because of the reboot? What about Hawkman? Firestorm? The Martian Manhunter? Captain Marvel?

I don't mind change. I don't mind it when writers take risks but most of the changes that were made to the DCU were simply for the sake of change.

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby TS Punk » Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:49 pm

Sakie wrote:
I have been arguing something similar but I have been using it against the relaunch. Basically most of the new 52 books that are good are all books that could have existed before the relaunch. The Batman family of books, Aquaman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, the Green Lantern books all could have existed without the relaunch and they would have benefited from being able to exist in a universe with familiar and likable characters.



I disagree. As bad as things were before, you still had familiar and likable characters. Now you have characters who look similar to the Justice League but behave like elitist snobs while the title itself is going nowhere. Plus, before the relaunch we still had Wally West, the JSA, and happily married characters.



Swamp Thing easily could have started at any time after Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Same could be said for Animal Man. Nothing that is happening in either of those titles couldn't have happened in the proper DCU.



If this relaunch has taught us anything, it's that any book can become stagnant, stale, and boring if you don't put a writer who understands and/or cares about the characters he/she is writing. We didn't need the relaunch to reinvigorate Aquaman, we just needed a guy who understood a way to show the fans that the only reason he was as bad as he was, is because the fans looked at him that way. For as terrible as Johns had made the Justice League, he has breathed new life into Aquaman.

Snyder and Lemire have created an epic story in Swamp Thing and Animal Man but they didn't need the relaunch to do it because they understand something about the characters and their world that makes them great.

Now look at Scott Lobdell. You want to tell me that any of the Teen Titans or Starfire are better off because of the reboot? What about Hawkman? Firestorm? The Martian Manhunter? Captain Marvel?

I don't mind change. I don't mind it when writers take risks but most of the changes that were made to the DCU were simply for the sake of change.


That last portion of your statement I totally agree with. I don't think that the whole relaunch was as well planned out as DC tried to lead us to believe it was, thus why some of the things that are currently happening are such shit. I agree that that most of the new things that are so good in the DCnU could have come about without the result of the relaunch. There are a few good things, well things that I find more interesting that were done with the relaunch, like Superboy. I think this new take on him is great, but I will agree that there are more characters that have suffered because of the relaunch. Still I don't think we need to scrap the whole line now and go back to the way things were before, then again I didn't think the whole line needed to be scrapped and started over from scratch in the first place either. One thing though is the relaunch got more people buying comics again over the last 8 months than over the 8 months prior to it. That could change in the next 8 months though and the numbers could drop to below the previous numbers but we just have to wait and see.
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Re: Justice League #8

Postby holtom2000 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:40 pm

Sakie wrote:
I have been arguing something similar but I have been using it against the relaunch. Basically most of the new 52 books that are good are all books that could have existed before the relaunch. The Batman family of books, Aquaman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing, the Green Lantern books all could have existed without the relaunch and they would have benefited from being able to exist in a universe with familiar and likable characters.



I disagree. As bad as things were before, you still had familiar and likable characters. Now you have characters who look similar to the Justice League but behave like elitist snobs while the title itself is going nowhere. Plus, before the relaunch we still had Wally West, the JSA, and happily married characters.



Swamp Thing easily could have started at any time after Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Same could be said for Animal Man. Nothing that is happening in either of those titles couldn't have happened in the proper DCU.



If this relaunch has taught us anything, it's that any book can become stagnant, stale, and boring if you don't put a writer who understands and/or cares about the characters he/she is writing. We didn't need the relaunch to reinvigorate Aquaman, we just needed a guy who understood a way to show the fans that the only reason he was as bad as he was, is because the fans looked at him that way. For as terrible as Johns had made the Justice League, he has breathed new life into Aquaman.

Snyder and Lemire have created an epic story in Swamp Thing and Animal Man but they didn't need the relaunch to do it because they understand something about the characters and their world that makes them great.

Now look at Scott Lobdell. You want to tell me that any of the Teen Titans or Starfire are better off because of the reboot? What about Hawkman? Firestorm? The Martian Manhunter? Captain Marvel?

I don't mind change. I don't mind it when writers take risks but most of the changes that were made to the DCU were simply for the sake of change.


This is exactly what I've been saying. I even pissed off evs trying to make this point though I later apologized. The best books are those with the least changes. Irony!

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Grayson » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:42 pm

Tee-Roy'd wrote:That last portion of your statement I totally agree with.


:-D

I don't think that the whole relaunch was as well planned out as DC tried to lead us to believe it was, thus why some of the things that are currently happening are such shit.


Oh absolutely! I think that somebody came up with the initial idea for a complete reboot of the DCU, some of the other guys at DC got excited, then they realized that there were guys like Johns and Morrison who had been telling an on-going story in their titles, and from there a complete reboot turned into a partial relaunch, which was rushed and became a poorly executed cluster fuck.

I agree that that most of the new things that are so good in the DCnU could have come about without the result of the relaunch. There are a few good things, well things that I find more interesting that were done with the relaunch, like Superboy. I think this new take on him is great, but I will agree that there are more characters that have suffered because of the relaunch.


Back in December, I would almost be ready to agree with you about Superboy. Then I remember how far the DCU character came and how quickly the DCnU version became the same repetitive story. This new take is certainly interesting but I would gladly have Conner Kent back.

Still I don't think we need to scrap the whole line now and go back to the way things were before, then again I didn't think the whole line needed to be scrapped and started over from scratch in the first place either.


This is exactly my point. It didn't need to happen in the first place. They could have made a few changes here or there but to scrap a majority of their continuity and make changes that were so drastic that characters are barely recognizable? It wasn't necessary. Especially when there are a ton of talented writers out there who would have loved to have been given the chance to reinvigorate the characters as they already were.

One thing though is the relaunch got more people buying comics again over the last 8 months than over the 8 months prior to it. That could change in the next 8 months though and the numbers could drop to below the previous numbers but we just have to wait and see.


True, more people bought comics in the last 8 months, however, they were attracted by the promise of a stunt. DC won't maintain those readers if they keep producing crap like Justice League, especially when those characters behave as differently from the versions that they are used to seeing on TV or on film. Plus, if those new readers come in and read a book as bad as Justice League, what are the chances that they will pick up a copy of Animal Man later?

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:37 am

So, last month I started the thread about Justice League #7, kinda drove the train a bit. I don't like doing that every single month -- I get as much enjoyment out of reading others' opinions -- so I decided to hold back a few days, stay off the boards and reserve comment about Justice League #8 until everyone who wanted to have a say at least had a chance to do so.

So, my take:

This series has been laughably bad. It's in the realm of horrific. If somebody told me that it wasn't really Johns writing this book but instead someone who had never written a comic book before -- let alone a good one -- I'd actually believe that more than I do that Geoff Johns is writing this book.

I'm not even talking about the Captain Marvel backup. I'm not. I've separated that out. This is about the Justice League only.

This book is AWFUL. There's so much wrong with it...even if you are the biggest fan of every single change that DC has made in the New 52, THIS BOOK IS AWFUL. The writing is AWFUL.

My God. It's staggering how progressively worse these issues have gotten, from a solid, if not spectacular, first issue to last month's, which was, to be blunt, one of the worst Justice League issues I've ever purchased.

EVER. Over 30-plus years.

This month's was only marginally better -- and let's be clear, if last month's was one of the worst I've ever read, "marginally better" still means "horrifically bad."

I don't know what in the hell is wrong with this book. It has nothing to do with prior versions of the Justice League, preconceived expectations for the New 52, none of that.

As a reader, I take ZERO responsibility for this garbage -- I approached Justice League with an extremely open mind, ready for the Johns/Lee combination to tell whatever new stories for a new status quo, for the New 52, they were going to tell. I wanted, absolutely wanted, to read this book and enjoy it.

This book is so bad, on so many levels...I'm honestly amazed, totally amazed, that this run has reached this level of ineptitude. I would never have guessed that.
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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Victorian Squid » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:55 am

But you'll be back next month, regardless, to do this all over again, won't you?

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:04 am

Victorian Mole wrote:But you'll be back next month, regardless, to do this all over again, won't you?


Actually, that's not even close to how this works, anymore.

I buy digitally now, so I'm not hurting the LCS owner by not reading it. Moreso, since the price drops after a month, I can absolutely not read the book and not only save money, but also read a few reviews/comments and see if I want to read it in the first place.

DC's not the only one who changed. This isn't like it was before. Check out my sig: I was blindly loyal to the Old DC. The New DC....just a bunch of characters who I don't feel any more or less of a connection to than any other.

Here's the best way to put this: If I could get my money back for the last seven issues of Justice League that I bought, I'd take it. In a heartbeat. You'd never hear a word from me about this book until the run's over.

But since I just dropped $4 on it a couple of days ago, it's fair game.

And before you ask, "Why are you reading it month after month, then?" That answer's pretty simple: The first issue was fairly solid, as I said. It's gotten progressively worse, and I absolutely would've dropped it after the sixth issue except I was hoping the Captain Marvel backup would be great, since that's a longtime favorite character of mine.

So, again: I'm giving the book a chance. It's just bad. Me dropping it or me reading it doesn't alter that.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Victorian Squid » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:17 am

You could easily get your money back on 1-7 in print form, unless you eat spaghetti while you read your comics.

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:28 am

Victorian Mole wrote:You could easily get your money back on 1-7 in print form, unless you eat spaghetti while you read your comics.


I do miss actually holding a comic book and actually reading it. I won't pretend that it's not odd buying digitally.

But I do it because it's better than going to the LCS and, say, they underordered by mistake, or the shipment didn't arrive. It's simply more convenient...and Marvel's Infinite Comics looks like it might be even a little more fun, in time.

So, yeah. I honestly would move that product if I had the hard copies. Again, I feel no loyalty toward any particular book/concept, since many of them are different enough where they are almost entirely new characters.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Juan Cena » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:50 am

There's one element lacking in the DCnU - nobility. Too many characters are acting like total d-bags.
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Re: Justice League #8

Postby holtom2000 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:29 am

Many of us called a lot of this early on. Writers are bailing on titles. There's no connection to the characters. And again, the titles with the least changes are doing the best.
But the failure of this book just shocsks me. 2+2 doesnt always equal four I guess

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby TS Punk » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:04 am

I understand agree with everyone that the changes just for the sake of changes is just wrong especially with the Justice League but thats not what bothers me the most about this book in particular. I wouldn't mind the JL acting like dickheads to everyone if they just did something! Nothing happens in the book, thats my biggest problem with it. Most shit happens off panel or is just talked about poorly. I just don't get it because when you look at the things that Johns did with the huge cast of characters when he wrote books like JSA it was all about the characters interaction with one another and nothing like that is happening in this book. It's just poorly written fights scenes that doesn't see any of the significant portions even happen in the panels of the pages. It just really doesn't make any sense to me why this book is so bad.
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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Juan Cena » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:01 pm

The only things that seriously needed to be fixed in the DCnU were Superman and the Legion - both of which Johns broke. Sadly, Legion didn't get fixed, Supes is screwed up even more (though he does seem less of a pu$$y than Johns-Supes), and most of the DCnU is totally fubar.
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Re: Justice League #8

Postby Punchy » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:45 am

I don’t get why this issue has been getting so much hate, it’s probably the best issue of this series so far. Yes, Green Lantern and Batman were dicks, but then they’ve always been dicks. Superman, Flash and Cyborg came across to me as perfectly in character. Aquaman’s attitude towards Green Arrow is perhaps a little problematic, but there’s obviously a reason behind it, in the new continuity it looks like Aquaman had a role in rescuing Green Arrow from his being deserted on an Island, which in my view is a cool new wrinkle. I like that Johns is bringing in some new and different ideas here, like the concept of how once in every 1000 boom-tube jumps that League go through, they end up in Apokolips, or the mystery surrounding Martian Manhunter’s brief membership of the league. This issue is also the first time I’ve liked Green Arrow since the reboot, although his new costume still looked rubbish. I also rather liked the Shazam back-up, Gary Frank’s art was awesome as usual, and I’m liking that the new Billy Batson has some depths, you can see that he wants to be good, but has been worn down by the system. The cookie-cutter goodie-two shoes you all want is still there deep down, but for once there’s more. I also liked seeing the new versions of Captain Marvel Jnr and Mary Marvel, heck we even got to see Hoppy The Marvel Bunny!

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Re: Justice League #8

Postby fieldy snuts » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:48 am

It's been getting so much hate because it sucks just like the rest of this run.

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