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Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby Victorian Squid » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:16 pm

holtom2000 wrote:That's the short term gain dc got for the long term pain by losing long term fans. I mean I wouldn't read the new crap for free.


He's a cheapskate, he only checks things out of the library and borrows comics from his friends.

He's on record saying he'd never pay $4 for a comic book. :lol:

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby jeremy » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:44 pm

I have not been reading Justice League forever or anything. I've read it here and there over the years, some runs, some trades, including trying to hang with the relaunch in new52. I've found the book a bit boring overall, but what has annoyed me is that they can't seem to ever tell very many core JL stories anymore. Everytime they "get the original team together" or whatever, it never seems to last more than a couple arcs before they start rolling in b/c-listers to spice things up. Combined with the whole "Batman secretly making ways to take the JLers down" thing, which is just a rehash of an existing storyline - which we were told when they relaunched DC that it wasn't just a reason to retell old stories - has made me want to drop the book.

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby holtom2000 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:32 pm

Victorian Squid wrote:
He's a cheapskate, he only checks things out of the library and borrows comics from his friends.

He's on record saying he'd never pay $4 for a comic book. :lol:

I'm much more frugal these days that's for sure, but I still pay cash for all the trades I read - mostly Boom and Marvel for me and my kid.
I find my daughter to be the best evaluator of all this as she loves the JLU and she hates the look of the new52
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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:53 am

I think the most important thing about ending the devotion to tropes is just how much it can open things up for good stories.

Avengers is a really good example of this -- hey, I recognize just as much as anyone that how "Disassembled" was done was awful. Some of it was truly, truly brutal, shortsighted.

But at the same time, let's look at it through the prism of time passed.

Avengers was stuck in a rut. The franchise was just...stuck. It felt old and boring and stale.

But Bendis, after the horrific storyline that began his tenure, did one thing that I feel makes Avengers the best franchise in comics today, even after his departure:

He asked "why not."

Why can't Spider-Man be an Avenger? Why can't Wolverine be an Avenger? Why can't Luke Cage be an Avenger? Why can't Iron Fist and the Sentry and Doctor Strange and Ben Grimm and so on and so forth...not be Avengers?

I am NOT, repeat NOT, saying all of it worked. That's not what I'm saying at all.

But that's the point: It wasn't all working before that. But what Avengers has, and has had for years now, is ENERGY. Not just the fact that change will take place for the sake of change, but that the change is meant to create a more cohesive Marvel Universe with a vibrant franchise.

Yes, Marvel has dipped into the "Civil War," "AvsX" well of heroes vs. heroes far too often. I don't dispute that -- and that trope needs to end, too.

But at the same time, when I read Avengers, I do kinda wish "Marvel rules" would be applied to Justice League.

I'm sick of seeing one or more of the "Big Six/Seven" be "off-planet" or unavailable. It's tiresome and boring and ridiculous.

Why? Because we've all read hundreds, if not thousands, of adventures of Superman. What matters now is how Superman interacts with other heroes. What team-ups do we see? What relationships are built? What makes them work together so well?

Is there a risk of too much structure, as Jude suggests? Perhaps. But I would argue that having a cohesive plan that moves characters forward, while clearly delineating roles and responsibilities, has helped Marvel immensely with Avengers and X-Men.

Personally? I think the just completed "Utopia Era" of X-Men was better than Chris Claremont's run -- and I used to think that run would be UNTOUCHABLE, with everything Claremont introduced and accomplished. But moving the X-Men, giving them definition and purpose, led to amazing stories and character development.

Same with Avengers. Bendis isn't quite the writer that Mike Carey and Matt Fraction, etc., were for X-Men, but at the same time, there were plenty of good things that came from Avengers over the past seven or so years.

Most importantly? Those books are fun. They don't have to be perfect every month. But it's not too much to ask for these characters to be enjoyable.

The heroes of DC Comics don't have to be dicks. They don't have to be rude, argumentative, arrogant and condescending. They can be "team players." They can be competent and intelligent and resourceful.

It's unfortunate that, with Geoff Johns and others, that kind of treatment is reserved for the villains, while the heroes are left with "miraculous victories" and "fresh-faced rookie enthusiasm."
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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby Punchy » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:03 am

The only JLA trope that needs to end is destroying Red Tornado every other story. They overuse that to manufacture peril but not actually kill someone and it is fucking lame-ass.

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby Jack Burton » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:36 am

I don't get how Johns the guy who wrote such a great team book with the JSA can fail so badly on the Justice League. His Avengers wasn't perfect but at least he wrote ONE good story in Red Zone.

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby syxxpakk » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:42 am

What makes this run so horrible, I wonder? I enjoyed the Darkseid and Aquaman-stories, but admittedly the one about the author left me non-plussed.
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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:19 am

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
But at the same time, when I read Avengers, I do kinda wish "Marvel rules" would be applied to Justice League.

I'm sick of seeing one or more of the "Big Six/Seven" be "off-planet" or unavailable. It's tiresome and boring and ridiculous.


This doesn't bode well for "Mighty Avengers" or "FF"
Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby 3MJ » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:23 am

Log-Man wrote:This is part of the reason the I can't even pretend to get excited for a mythical Justice League movie. Do we really think that the storytelling in a movie is miraculously going to be amazing when the books have been dreadful for years?


Marvel comics have been awful for ages. It's easier to make a good movie/tv show then it is to make a good comic. The characters have been around for 50+ years and are now set in stone. Make the Avengers movie a 6 issue comic and it'd go down like a lead balloon.

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:47 am

Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby holtom2000 » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:59 am

Jack Burton wrote:I don't get how Johns the guy who wrote such a great team book with the JSA can fail so badly on the Justice League. His Avengers wasn't perfect but at least he wrote ONE good story in Red Zone.


My thoughts exactly. It was one home run after another on that book. Johns' JLA arc pre Infinite Crisis was pretty good, but this? blah
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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby MajorTool » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:06 pm

xaraan wrote:. Everytime they "get the original team together" or whatever, it never seems to last more than a couple arcs before they start rolling in b/c-listers to spice things up. .


Agreed.
I hate how the League always turns into a dumping ground for characters that could not sustain a solo title.
I hate recruitment stories so much & Justice League seems to do that every 12 issues or so.
The first story arc was so "huge" (whatever) there really was nothing to build up to.
IMO, every issue after #1 of this current run, has been forgettable.



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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby Herald » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:50 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:And I feel that is because the franchise is held hostage by these tropes, in no particular order:

1. "Good storytelling requires at least two teammates to dislike each other enough that it impacts their performance and weighs down the rest of the team, including arguing during missions or rushing headlong against a powerful villain, on their own, to prove their point."


Teeth-Clenched Teamwork

2. "The rookies who have not mastered their powers or never seen training as part of a team scenario are always lucky enough to survive. So we'll always have more fresh-faced rookies. Despite the fact that failure by the Justice League means that Darkseid conquers the Earth."


Naïve Newcomer

3. "Batman's not so smart. Or he has 25 lives. Because Element Woman's clearly mentally unstable and needs help, yet The World's Greatest Tactician is willing to risk not only his life, but the lives of his teammates and of others, so she can say cute things as a member of the team."


The Mentally Disturbed

4. "Superman's not so tough. I mean, seriously. Superspeed, superstrength, heat vision, and enhanced senses are easily negated because he only uses his super-brain every 100 issues or so."


Forgot About His Powers (aka Plot-Induced Stupidity)

5. "Surveillance and security are just random letters put together. They don't really mean anything. I mean, seriously. It's not like having defined security protocols would actually be useful. I mean, in just 21 issues, the Watchtower's been breached by David Graves and Despero, while their case files have been downloaded and stolen."


Swiss Cheese Security

6. "Leadership and tactics are completely overrated. That's why Aquaman, who is a king with an army at his disposal, and Batman, who, again, is the World's Greatest Tactician and the nominal head of a global company, as well as an Amazon warrior bred for combat, never show any, including the necessary ability to know that you have to have...leaders and tactics."


Drama-Preserving Handicap

7. "Batman keeps coming up with ways to kill us behind our backs."


Flaw Exploitation

8. "Batman trusts little kids with his life but doesn't trust us at all, even though we keep Darkseid from conquering the Earth. Repeatedly."


The Lancer

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby Herald » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:53 pm

Jack Burton wrote:I don't get how Johns the guy who wrote such a great team book with the JSA can fail so badly on the Justice League.


Protection From Editors:

"Due to editors not being willing or able to fight back against a brand-name star, the resulting new material from an old creator can end up being lower-quality. Sometimes very much lower, as the author's bad habits, Mary Sues, and Author Appeals come to the fore (sometimes to the horrified shock of the creator's fanbase), where before, such excesses would be quickly and ruthlessly excised. The creators get away with it because it'll sell anyway, and we don't want to risk pissing him off and having him bolt for another company."

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Re: Justice League tropes that need to end in modern era

Postby Herald » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:00 pm

Punchy wrote:The only JLA trope that needs to end is destroying Red Tornado every other story. They overuse that to manufacture peril but not actually kill someone and it is fucking lame-ass.


The Worf Effect:

"Want a quick way to show how dangerous one of your unknown characters is? Simple, make him do well or win in a fight with a character that the audience already knows is tough. This establishes him as willing to fight and marks him as sufficiently dangerous.

"For new villains, it's common for them to pick up the toughest character among the heroes and hurl him across the room or otherwise take him out in one blow, thus showing that they are the real deal. 'Wow, he just beat up Worf! He must be bad news!' Of course, if the same character is repeatedly used as the target of displays like these, it can result in Badass Decay, and if abused, his toughness could become an Informed Ability."

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"Whenever he's in the Justice League, Ridiculously Human Android Red Tornado is notorious for always getting demolished to show off a villain's power. The main reason for this is that the badguy can tear Red apart and the team can just repair him later."

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