The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **Juan Cena** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:55 pm

habitual wrote:
Yes, but, when it comes to Legion you're not grounded in reality.

Giffen turned the competition's entire cosmic line around, which is why your objections are foolish.

Hab

Yeah, it got so turned around that all the books got canceled. Not helping your argument there.

And unless he's going to be bringing D&A with him, I doubt that the critical success is going to follow him back to Legion.

by **Juan Cena** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:00 pm

Log-Man wrote:Ok, Nacireman, seriously: Stop. Reading. Legion.

You're never happy with Legion.
You will never be happy with Legion.
You are incapable of being happy with Legion.

Just stop already. This kind of behavior is usually limited to alcoholics and heroine addicts. You have a problem Get help.

I'm not happy with the Legion in its current state.
I'll be happy with Legion if somebody comes and is actually able to breathe some new life into it.
If I was incapable of being happy with Legion then I wouldn't be so fraking critical of the current state of the book. I know when the Legion's been good. I also know when the book's been just sputtering along.

by **habitual** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:06 pm

The Nacireman wrote:
I'm not happy with the Legion in its current state.
I'll be happy with Legion if somebody comes and is actually able to breathe some new life into it.
If I was incapable of being happy with Legion then I wouldn't be so fraking critical of the current state of the book. I know when the Legion's been good. I also know when the book's been just sputtering along.

No dude, he's correct. You're so OCD over this title it's entirely impossible for you to be happy with it or even evenhanded regarding criticism.

Giffen will do a good job, just maybe take a year off so you can gain some perspective because some of the points you bring up regarding the Legion sound entirely irrational.

Hab

by **Juan Cena** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:52 am

habitual wrote:
No dude, he's correct. You're so OCD over this title it's entirely impossible for you to be happy with it or even evenhanded regarding criticism.

Giffen will do a good job, just maybe take a year off so you can gain some perspective because some of the points you bring up regarding the Legion sound entirely irrational.

Hab

Like what?

by **Amoebas** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:12 am

Log-Man wrote:Just stop already. This kind of behavior is usually limited to alcoholics and heroine addicts. You have a problem Get help.

habitual wrote:You're so OCD over this title it's entirely impossible for you to be happy with it or even evenhanded regarding criticism.

Log & hab, talk like this is utterly pointless. People have been telling this guy the exact same thing for over a decade now.

Some people you just have to give up on.

by **Arion** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:32 pm

ThatGuyRoman wrote:How many times can you possibly revamp the same set of characters ...

We all love young Legionnaires, don't we?

by **Log-Man** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:15 pm

Amoebas wrote:

Log & hab, talk like this is utterly pointless. People have been telling this guy the exact same thing for over a decade now.

Some people you just have to give up on.

You're right, of course. I just needed to get it off my chest.

by **Juan Cena** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:34 pm

Arion wrote:
We all love young Legionnaires, don't we?

Yes. And smart thing at the start of the Nu-52 would have been to de-age the Legionnaires back to the late teens-early 20's, and keeping continunity intact as much as possible.

by **habitual** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:38 pm

The Nacireman wrote:
Yeah, it got so turned around that all the books got canceled. Not helping your argument there.

And unless he's going to be bringing D&A with him, I doubt that the critical success is going to follow him back to Legion.

He generated books; so that's all the argument I need. And A&L's work always fell short compared to Giffen. The fact that GotG are being considered for other mediums should be enough for you to button your lip.

And as far as you not being grounded in reality as far as the Legion is concerned all you really have to do is look at any thread you post in about them and there are always at least three different people telling your crazy obsessed.

Hab

by **Juan Cena** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:16 pm

habitual wrote:
He generated books; so that's all the argument I need. And A&L's work always fell short compared to Giffen. The fact that GotG are being considered for other mediums should be enough for you to button your lip.

And as far as you not being grounded in reality as far as the Legion is concerned all you really have to do is look at any thread you post in about them and there are always at least three different people telling your crazy obsessed.

Hab

Books that couldn't sustain themselves after two or three years. Neither Nova nor GotG managed to last past 36 issues.

80. GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY
04/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #13 - 27,107 ( +1.3%)
05/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #14 - 27,130 ( +0.1%)
06/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #15 - 26,808 ( -1.2%)
07/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #16 - 26,605 ( -0.8%)
08/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #17 - 27,893 ( +4.8%)
09/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #18 - 24,896 (-10.7%)
10/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #19 - 23,597 ( -5.2%)
11/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #20 - 22,965 ( -2.7%)
12/09 Guardians o/Galaxy #21 - 22,271 ( -3.0%)
01/10 Guardians o/Galaxy #22 - 21,623 ( -3.0%)
02/10 Guardians o/Galaxy #23 - 22,807 ( +5.5%)
03/10 Guardians o/Galaxy #24 - 21,643 ( -5.1%)
04/10 Guardians o/Galaxy #25 - 24,568 (+13.5%)
6 mnth ( +4.1%)
1 year ( -9.4%)

GUARDIANS and NOVA both end this month, though they’re leading into a Thanos miniseries. This issue also has an “Iron man by Design” variant.

86. NOVA
04/07 Nova #1 - 42,917
04/08 Nova #12 - 28,185 ( +0.1%)
=====
04/09 Nova #24 - 26,240 ( -0.7%)
05/09 Nova #25 - 26,172 ( -0.3%)
06/09 Nova #26 - 28,107 ( +7.4%)
07/09 Nova #27 - 25,677 ( -8.6%)
08/09 Nova #28 - 27,038 ( +5.3%)
09/09 Nova #29 - 23,924 (-11.5%)
10/09 Nova #30 - 22,845 ( -4.5%)
11/09 Nova #31 - 22,928 ( +0.4%)
12/09 Nova #32 - 22,202 ( -3.2%)
01/10 Nova #33 - 21,841 ( -1.6%)
02/10 Nova #34 - 23,014 ( +5.4%)
03/10 Nova #35 - 21,407 ( -7.0%)
04/10 Nova #36 - 22,365 ( +4.5%)
6 mnth ( -2.1%)
1 year (-14.8%)
2 year (-20.6%)
3 year (-47.9%)

Final issue: see above under GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY. As with that book, there’s an “Iron Man by Design” varian

Whatever you want to say about Marvel Cosmic, it had sales that were close to Legion's sales for the past few years.

Do I think Giffen's going to raise sales significantly on Legion looking at these numbers over the long run? Probably not. There might be a little bit of a boost, but I doubt that will last.

by **Juan Cena** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:29 pm

As for your other point, if the problem was just that I didn't like the direction or quality of the current run, but it was selling 30K-50k or more a month I wouldn't have much to argue against. There are more than a few books that I'm crazy about that sell pretty well to decently.

As the case stands at the moment. The fact that Legion isn't selling at good enough rate (in fact below 20k just before the zero month) indicates there's more problems on this book than the fact that I've been disappointed with it.

Clearly, using "nostalgia" creators like Shooter or Levitz hasn't worked to get sales higher on a consistent level (without gimmicks like alternate covers or special issues to artificially booster sales).

So if that isn't working, why would doubling down on the nostalgia with Giffen work?

by **habitual** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:35 pm

The Nacireman wrote:
Books that couldn't sustain themselves after two or three years. Neither Nova nor GotG managed to last past 36 issues.

Whatever you want to say about Marvel Cosmic, it had sales that were close to Legion's sales for the past few years.

Do I think Giffen's going to raise sales significantly on Legion looking at these numbers over the long run? Probably not. There might be a little bit of a boost, but I doubt that will last.

It had how many books that were close to Legion sales.

How many events did the Legion generate vs. Marvel Cosmic, you're down three in that category as well. Comparing DC's cosmic line to Marvel's over the past 7-8 years is automatic failure.

You need Giffen, just accept it and move on (I know that's impossible though because every other poster in this thread is saying it)

Hab

by **False Prophet** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:43 pm

At this point, Jude could probably just code a Legion-thread template for Nac and save everyone the trouble.

by **Herald** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:04 pm

habitual wrote:How many events did the Legion generate vs. Marvel Cosmic, you're down three in that category as well.

Okay, I have to call foul on that one. Marvel Cosmic has the benefit of being a collection of disparate solo characters, taking place in "the present", whereas the Legion -- Legion Lost notwithstanding, as they HAVE to return to the future at some point -- is a single team that is running around 10 centuries hence. Considering the fact that solo characters lend themselves far more readily to the multiple books needed for an event than characters mostly known as a group, and that more readers (and creators) tend to care about the present -- the era in which THEY live -- more than the unfamiliar future, you can't reasonably expect the Legion to have touched off the kinds of events as Marvel Cosmic.

Comparing DC's cosmic line to Marvel's over the past 7-8 years is automatic failure.

Another foul. DC unfortunately has Geoff Johns in Chief Creative charge of it, so DC Cosmic is horribly hobbled by a man who can't BEGIN to conceive of space characters that aren't "Lanterns!! LANTERNS!!!!! LANTERNS!!!!!!!!!" Even Giffen's upcoming Threshold book, for all the messianic hoopla, is led by YET ANOTHER miserable @#$%-ing Green Lantern. As if the Lanterns weren't getting enough ink monthly already... :roll:

*facepalm*

You need Giffen, just accept it and move on (I know that's impossible though because every other poster in this thread is saying it)

Not everyone in this thread...

by **habitual** » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:11 pm

Herald wrote:
Not everyone in this thread...

This is all I read of your post.

You don't count, except for the rubber room portion of the speech Nacireman got, for that you definitely qualify.

Hab