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Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams III Walk Off Batwoman

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fieldy snuts
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:29 pm

habitual wrote:Not really what we're arguing about, but, thanks for playing.

Hab


im currently tripping off cold meds, what's your excuse?
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby habitual » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:36 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:
im currently tripping off cold meds, what's your excuse?


I've been dealing with Punchy all day.

I'd rather be you. :|

Hab

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:40 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:The marriage is a detriment in the long term to the Spider books and erasing it was the smartest thing to happen to the books in ages.

In short, a lot of you are wrong and Punchy is right. Deal with it.


Gonna go ahead and respectfully disagree with you there. The stories after OMD were just...bad. Some were decent at best, but most were just crap. That's why I sold most of them away. And I don't miss them. From the forced reminder that cigarettes cause cancer multiple times an issue (but pacts with Satan are OK, kids!), to the idiotic circumstances of Peter sleeping with his Latina roommate, to the needless and repetitive censored cursing (sometimes from characters not known for it), to pretty much taking the character backwards in sleeping with Black Cat, who frankly is kind of a bitch. And not in an endearing way.

It was all just paltry garbage. Two years, I stuck with that title, and the storytelling didn't get anywhere near where JMS's quality. This is to say nothing of the declining sales Amazing suffered after Straczynski left.

The premise of OMD was fundamentally idiotic. It was done completely out of spite, because Quesada and a few other nimrods didn't like MJ and couldn't grow up and deal with the evolution of Spidey's life or that maybe he should have at least ONE THING (besides Aunt May) be consistently right in his life. They didn't want to kill her off or divorce them, because that would mean the marriage still happened. No, Quesada had a special kind of malice driving him, and wanted to erase it from existence, while making MJ look as bad as possible for "convincing Peter" to go through with it. He didn't care about characterization, cohesion, or even a story that made sense. He didn't do this for the character, and certainly not the reader. He wanted it for the sake of his seething hatred.

Even if you love single Spidey over married Spidey, One More Day was a flawed story in multiple respects that wasn't even thought through by the dumbass(es) that ordered it. They didn't squeeze out a half-assed (and still stupid) explanation for another, what, two to three years? Besides, I can't think of a single story that would need to be fundamentally changed if the marriage had stayed. If we lose Parker fake-drunk-humping or playing "Let's pretend it's the 1970's again and jump into the sack" with Black Cat, so much the better, as far as I'm concerned.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:54 pm

Good thing OMD was about 6 years ago and the marriage has been buried in time.

Unless someone like Geoff Johns comes back to Marvel and decides to retcon OMD so that the marriage was always there I don't see any way it'll be undone.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:00 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:Good thing OMD was about 6 years ago and the marriage has been buried in time.

Unless someone like Geoff Johns comes back to Marvel and decides to retcon OMD so that the marriage was always there I don't see any way it'll be undone.


When the generation of new writers who grew up with the marriage get to Marvel, they'll change it.

Just like Joey Q decided he didn't like the marriage and wanted single Pete like he grew up with.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:02 pm

Chris wrote:
When the generation of new writers who grew up with the marriage get to Marvel, they'll change it.

Just like Joey Q decided he didn't like the marriage and wanted single Pete like he grew up with.


Different world, different values.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:04 pm

The marriage lasted 20 years. You really think a 6 year absence made everyone forget? Or made OMD any less stupid? My point still stands: Quesada let his hatred make his decision, and subsequent stories could've worked just fine with the marriage instead of Peter being a man-slut.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:05 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:Good thing OMD was about 6 years ago and the marriage has been buried in time.

Unless someone like Geoff Johns comes back to Marvel and decides to retcon OMD so that the marriage was always there I don't see any way it'll be undone.


When the generation of new writers who grew up with the marriage get to Marvel, they'll change it.

Just like Joey Q decided he didn't like the marriage and wanted single Pete like he grew up with.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:12 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Gonna go ahead and respectfully disagree with you there. The stories after OMD were just...bad. Some were decent at best, but most were just crap. That's why I sold most of them away. And I don't miss them. From the forced reminder that cigarettes cause cancer multiple times an issue (but pacts with Satan are OK, kids!), to the idiotic circumstances of Peter sleeping with his Latina roommate, to the needless and repetitive censored cursing (sometimes from characters not known for it), to pretty much taking the character backwards in sleeping with Black Cat, who frankly is kind of a bitch. And not in an endearing way.

It was all just paltry garbage. Two years, I stuck with that title, and the storytelling didn't get anywhere near where JMS's quality. This is to say nothing of the declining sales Amazing suffered after Straczynski left.

The premise of OMD was fundamentally idiotic. It was done completely out of spite, because Quesada and a few other nimrods didn't like MJ and couldn't grow up and deal with the evolution of Spidey's life or that maybe he should have at least ONE THING (besides Aunt May) be consistently right in his life. They didn't want to kill her off or divorce them, because that would mean the marriage still happened. No, Quesada had a special kind of malice driving him, and wanted to erase it from existence, while making MJ look as bad as possible for "convincing Peter" to go through with it. He didn't care about characterization, cohesion, or even a story that made sense. He didn't do this for the character, and certainly not the reader. He wanted it for the sake of his seething hatred.

Even if you love single Spidey over married Spidey, One More Day was a flawed story in multiple respects that wasn't even thought through by the dumbass(es) that ordered it. They didn't squeeze out a half-assed (and still stupid) explanation for another, what, two to three years? Besides, I can't think of a single story that would need to be fundamentally changed if the marriage had stayed. If we lose Parker fake-drunk-humping or playing "Let's pretend it's the 1970's again and jump into the sack" with Black Cat, so much the better, as far as I'm concerned.


Sporkbot pretty much said it here even though I will go further and add that Quesada also had the same hatred for Gwen as I'm blaming him and the other editorial staff for the direction that story went-even though JMS was pretty much the scapegoat for that garbage unfortunately. While I definately would take Quesada over an imbecile like Didio anyday, I really wish he would move beyond his anti-marriage/ relationship vendetta as this is just like reading a soap opera in comic form.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:25 pm

SporkBot wrote:The marriage lasted 20 years. You really think a 6 year absence made everyone forget? Or made OMD any less stupid? My point still stands: Quesada let his hatred make his decision, and subsequent stories could've worked just fine with the marriage instead of Peter being a man-slut.



Yes. Because OMD is as dead and buried as this marriage that never happened.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:38 pm

I'm sorry, that statement doesn't seem to make any sense. Which means you're Joe Quesada. *rimshot*

People aren't forgetting the marriage. Used to the fact that Baby Joe needed his idiocy bah-bah, and that MJ's not Mrs. Parker any more, sure. But "used to" and "forgot about" aren't the same thing. Heck, Dark Knight Returns isn't that different in age to when Spidey got married, and that's still talked about.

6 years doesn't change the fact that OMD was terrible storytelling that a good storyteller was forced to write.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:41 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:

Yes. Because OMD is as dead and buried as this marriage that never happened.


People forgetting Peter and MJ's marriage is like people forgetting Norman Osborn was the Green Goblin or Eddie Brock was Venom. Not going to happen, my friend.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:43 pm

SporkBot wrote:I'm sorry, that statement doesn't seem to make any sense. Which means you're Joe Quesada. *rimshot*

People aren't forgetting the marriage. Used to the fact that Baby Joe needed his idiocy bah-bah, and that MJ's not Mrs. Parker any more, sure. But "used to" and "forgot about" aren't the same thing. Heck, Dark Knight Returns isn't that different in age to when Spidey got married, and that's still talked about.

6 years doesn't change the fact that OMD was terrible storytelling that a good storyteller was forced to write.


Wouldn't it have been awesome if OMD had retconned Sins Past instead of the marriage-ironically JMS was trying to do that but wasn't allowed to.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:06 pm

draco x wrote:Wouldn't it have been awesome if OMD had retconned Sins Past instead of the marriage-ironically JMS was trying to do that but wasn't allowed to.


Actually...yeah. I mean, I'm mixed on the story: JMS' original idea of the Stacy Twins being Parker's kids is pretty clichéd. On the other hand, sweet and innocent Gwen Stacy giving pity sex to Norman Osborn isn't exactly better.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:10 pm

SporkBot wrote:I'm sorry, that statement doesn't seem to make any sense. Which means you're Joe Quesada. *rimshot*

People aren't forgetting the marriage. Used to the fact that Baby Joe needed his idiocy bah-bah, and that MJ's not Mrs. Parker any more, sure. But "used to" and "forgot about" aren't the same thing. Heck, Dark Knight Returns isn't that different in age to when Spidey got married, and that's still talked about.

6 years doesn't change the fact that OMD was terrible storytelling that a good storyteller was forced to write.


Bullshit. JMS was 100% onboard with it but he wanted an even bigger reboot reaching back to ASM #100 to undo Gwen Stacy's death and affect everything in Marvel's continuity.

Quesada wanted a more surgical reboot where instances of married couple are replaced with "boyfriend/girlfriend" to make the separation post-OMD easier instead of a divorce.

In the end it happened, they split up, Peter Parker was single again and not weighed down storyline wise with a marriage and life went on for almost 150+ issues of Amazing and many more of every associated title.

it might only have been 6 years ago, but in terms of stories told it has been generations ago.

Quesada won. Deservedly so.
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