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Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams III Walk Off Batwoman

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:12 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:
Bullshit. JMS was 100% onboard with it but he wanted an even bigger reboot reaching back to ASM #100 to undo Gwen Stacy's death and affect everything in Marvel's continuity.

Quesada wanted a more surgical reboot where instances of married couple are replaced with "boyfriend/girlfriend" to make the separation post-OMD easier instead of a divorce.

In the end it happened, they split up, Peter Parker was single again and not weighed down storyline wise with a marriage and life went on for almost 150+ issues of Amazing and many more of every associated title.

it might only have been 6 years ago, but in terms of stories told it has been generations ago.

Quesada won. Deservedly so.


The term pyrhic victory comes to mind as OMD as considered the most loathed storyline next to the 90's Clone Saga and Sins Past.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:16 pm

"weighed down" by the marriage is the most bullshitty excuse ever given for that whole mess. :lol:
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:17 pm

draco x wrote:
The term pyrhic victory comes to mind as OMD as considered the most loathed storyline next to the 90's Clone Saga and Sins Past.


OMD has as much in common with Slott's run as the X-Files has with Breaking Bad.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby The Shadow » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:20 pm

HNutz wrote:Those are some mighty fine runs.

I know, right?

HNutz wrote:But, are they so good SIMPLY because MJ's not married to Peter? Or does it have more to do with the talents of those writers?

The argument was that the JMS run was a fan favourite WITH the couple married. I was simply showing some fairly good fan favourite runs WITHOUT them married.

Nothing more, nothing less.

That being said, I liked it when Peter was interested in Gwen but suddenly MJ was on the scene! Who was he going to choose? And what about Betty? Was she still in there? Then there was the bad girl Black Cat stories and we KNEW she wasn't good for Peter but he sure didn't. And we felt Peters heartache when Gwen died which certainly would have been lessened if it Gwen was just a good friend and his wife was safe at home.

With the married Peter we KNEW he wouldn't cheat so there was never any 'tension' with him and other women.

HNutz wrote:Conversely, when MJ was believed dead (under Mackie?), did the quality suddenly skyrocket? Or, because the writer didn't change, did the story quality stay consistent?

Your argument is invalid because you're using Mackie as your writer whereas I'm using Lee, Stern or PAD. :wink:
Last edited by The Shadow on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:20 pm

Chris wrote:"weighed down" by the marriage is the most bullshitty excuse ever given for that whole mess. :lol:


shit happens. we move on.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:23 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:
OMD has as much in common with Slott's run as the X-Files has with Breaking Bad.


You're comparing one writer and two shows with good writing to one of the worst Spider stories ever? Pardon me if I don't follow this logic. The only times I have heard OMD being mentioned anywhere is how bad it was. Truth be told people are most likely going to forget that story more than Peter and MJ's marriage.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:24 pm

draco x wrote:
You're comparing one writer and two shows with good writing to one of the worst Spider stories ever? Pardon me if I don't follow this logic. The only times I have heard OMD being mentioned anywhere is how bad it was. Truth be told people are most likely going to forget that story more than Peter and MJ's marriage.


obviously since the spider-manrriage has been featured in the movies and tv shows, right? :lol:

those are arguably where most people who know of spider-man base their opinion of continuity.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:35 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:
obviously since the spider-manrriage has been featured in the movies and tv shows, right? :lol:

those are arguably where most people who know of spider-man base their opinion of continuity.


First off Peter and MJ did get married in the 90's Spiderman cartoon( Although that was technically a water clone created by the Jackal but that's beside the point) as well as Spiderman Unlimited and you're overlooking the fact that various Spiderman videogames have had them as a married couple. Furthermore, the 1st 3 movies may not have had them as a married but they were definately on their way to that path by the third one so like I said that argument you're holding onto doesn't carry much weight at all.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:36 pm

Chris wrote:"weighed down" by the marriage is the most bullshitty excuse ever given for that whole mess. :lol:


Apparently Quesada believed that comic books should be like soap operas where everyone is young and single and every relationship has to be full of melodrama or temporary.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:41 pm

draco x wrote:
Apparently Quesada believed that comic books should be like soap operas where everyone is young and single and every relationship has to be full of melodrama or temporary.


or like jersey shore...or better yet: geordie shore.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby The Shadow » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:44 pm

SporkBot wrote:The stories after OMD were just...bad. Some were decent at best, but most were just crap.

Be honest here, but could your dislike of OMD possibly be colouring your opinions of the stories that followed just a bit?

SporkBot wrote:From the forced reminder that cigarettes cause cancer multiple times an issue (but pacts with Satan are OK, kids!)

I can name 24 people that I know who died of lung cancer from my grandfather and three aunts to a former school friend... but can't name a single person who has made a pact with a demonic entity. Can you??

SporkBot wrote:to pretty much taking the character backwards in sleeping with Black Cat

You've never gone back to an ex? You're missing out :wink:

SporkBot wrote:the storytelling didn't get anywhere near where JMS's quality. This is to say nothing of the declining sales Amazing suffered after Straczynski left.

On one hand you're basically saying the quality suffered because JMS wasn't there and thus the sales went down but you neglect to mention ASM went almost weekly at that point and sales might have dropped because of that.

SporkBot wrote:The premise of OMD was fundamentally idiotic.

No, Marvel felt Peter worked better single. You may disagree with that, but your disagreement doesn't make it idiotic.

SporkBot wrote:It was done completely out of spite, because Quesada and a few other nimrods didn't like MJ and couldn't grow up and deal with the evolution of Spidey's life or that maybe he should have at least ONE THING (besides Aunt May) be consistently right in his life.

If the marriage was organic and made sense, you might have a point. But it was only done because Stan was doing it in the newspaper strip. Peter and MJ had recently broken up and had to hastily be reunited to make it work.

SporkBot wrote:They didn't want to kill her off or divorce them, because that would mean the marriage still happened. No, Quesada had a special kind of malice driving him, and wanted to erase it from existence, while making MJ look as bad as possible for "convincing Peter" to go through with it. He didn't care about characterization, cohesion, or even a story that made sense. He didn't do this for the character, and certainly not the reader. He wanted it for the sake of his seething hatred.

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SporkBot wrote:Even if you love single Spidey over married Spidey, One More Day was a flawed story in multiple respects that wasn't even thought through by the dumbass(es) that ordered it.

OMD was a means to an end. It wasn't meant to be Watchmen... it was meant to undo a 21 year mistake. That's all.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:44 pm

draco x wrote:
Apparently Quesada believed that comic books should be like soap operas where everyone is young and single and every relationship has to be full of melodrama or temporary.


I am ok with seperating them from a story standpoint. It was Quesada's belief that divorcing them would age Peter that was stupid. The whole deal with the devil business is the problem there.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby HNutz » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:45 pm

Onto a different marriage... I like Waid's and Johns' work on Wally West and Linda Park. But they dropped the ball when they gave the kids powers, IMO.

The Shadow wrote:Your argument is invalid because you're using Mackie as your writer whereas I'm using Lee, Stern or PAD. :wink:


PAD wrote a married Peter Parker in Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man. Of course, part of that WAS "The Other", which doesn't win any points, either.

Did Jenkins write both a married and a single Spidey?

I like the Jenkins run, but it got WEIRD a few times (Parker turning into a giant spider and giving birth to himself, the mimes, etc).
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:46 pm

Chris wrote:
I am ok with seperating them from a story standpoint. It was Quesada's belief that divorcing them would age Peter that was stupid. The whole deal with the devil business is the problem there.


lol no it is not.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:46 pm

Chris wrote:
I am ok with seperating them from a story standpoint. It was Quesada's belief that divorcing them would age Peter that was stupid. The whole deal with the devil business is the problem there.


So agreed. The funny thing is that even people who didn't like Peter and MJ's marriage loathed the direction OMD went as they said just divorcing or breaking them up would have been better.

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