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Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams III Walk Off Batwoman

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby GHERU » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:48 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Gonna go ahead and respectfully disagree with you there. The stories after OMD were just...bad. Some were decent at best, but most were just crap. That's why I sold most of them away. And I don't miss them. From the forced reminder that cigarettes cause cancer multiple times an issue (but pacts with Satan are OK, kids!), to the idiotic circumstances of Peter sleeping with his Latina roommate, to the needless and repetitive censored cursing (sometimes from characters not known for it), to pretty much taking the character backwards in sleeping with Black Cat, who frankly is kind of a bitch. And not in an endearing way.

It was all just paltry garbage. Two years, I stuck with that title, and the storytelling didn't get anywhere near where JMS's quality. This is to say nothing of the declining sales Amazing suffered after Straczynski left.

The premise of OMD was fundamentally idiotic. It was done completely out of spite, because Quesada and a few other nimrods didn't like MJ and couldn't grow up and deal with the evolution of Spidey's life or that maybe he should have at least ONE THING (besides Aunt May) be consistently right in his life. They didn't want to kill her off or divorce them, because that would mean the marriage still happened. No, Quesada had a special kind of malice driving him, and wanted to erase it from existence, while making MJ look as bad as possible for "convincing Peter" to go through with it. He didn't care about characterization, cohesion, or even a story that made sense. He didn't do this for the character, and certainly not the reader. He wanted it for the sake of his seething hatred.

Even if you love single Spidey over married Spidey, One More Day was a flawed story in multiple respects that wasn't even thought through by the dumbass(es) that ordered it. They didn't squeeze out a half-assed (and still stupid) explanation for another, what, two to three years? Besides, I can't think of a single story that would need to be fundamentally changed if the marriage had stayed. If we lose Parker fake-drunk-humping or playing "Let's pretend it's the 1970's again and jump into the sack" with Black Cat, so much the better, as far as I'm concerned.

NO, just no
Mary Jane was a horrible wife. How many times did she leave Peter only to come back when she coudln't make it on her own
Right before OMD she let the whole world believe that she was sleeping with Tony Stark, even though everyone knew she was married to a school teacher
Married heroes or no, I don't really care, but I'm sick of MJ getting a pass as a great wife who made a side deal with Satan at the end of OMD. A good wife would have told her husband the truth, that he was about to make a horrible choice, instead, she agreed so that she would have a better career.

"consistently right in his life" when she felt like it
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby syxxpakk » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:51 pm

We must have been reading different Batwoman comic books because I don't recall Kate nullifying her marriage to Maggie by making a deal with Neron.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby GHERU » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:53 pm

for the record "marriage limits story telling" is as weak an argument at "continuity limits story telling'
good writers can respect both
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:58 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:
lol no it is not.


lol yes it is
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:04 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:Bullshit. JMS was 100% onboard with it but he wanted an even bigger reboot reaching back to ASM #100 to undo Gwen Stacy's death and affect everything in Marvel's continuity.


First, I've heard that "undo Stacy's death" stuff before, and I've yet to find Straczynski himself quoted on it. It's always Quesada saying this was the writer's intent. Could be JMS didn't want to discuss the matter when asked, I don't know. I always figured that if JMS had suggested it, it was a joke that people took too seriously, or a kind of "hey, if we're gonna do something crazy-stupid, let's go full crazy-stupid!". But for the sake of the argument, let's say that was his plan. Secondly, the two were famously at odds on the story. JMS wanted his name off the last two issues, but was talked out of it.

I invite you to watch this video, at least the first minute (because the other half deals with Aunt May and is not relevant to the subject at hand): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68Ch3rrDH4k

Essentially, J. Michael was told early on that his run would end with the dissolution of the marriage, and he didn't care for the idea. That's not 100% on board.

Quesada wanted a more surgical reboot where instances of married couple are replaced with "boyfriend/girlfriend" to make the separation post-OMD easier instead of a divorce.


Because "boyfriend and girlfriend living together and having a marriage-like relationship without the official ceremony and paperwork" works perfectly, but "officially married" somehow spells storytelling poison? Sorry, man. Not buying it. Only a less talented writer (or short-sighted EICs) are unable (rather, unwilling) to make a comic character's marriage work.

Altering the marriage at all alters the continuity. For Straczynski's version they could've just used the famous, "it's magic, we don't have to explain it" line to make it work...just like they did with Quesada's version. That's not surgical, it's omitting details that are too hard to sort out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not exactly thrilled with the whole "Gwen lives" concept, but given the OMD (and BND) we got...I can't imagine it would've been worse.

In the end it happened, they split up, Peter Parker was single again and not weighed down storyline wise with a marriage and life went on for almost 150+ issues of Amazing and many more of every associated title.


And as far as Amazing's concerned, they weren't very good (see previous rant). There's still nothing pointing to the marriage having weighed him down. In fact, JMS famously posted the sales figures of the book after he left.

Image

it might only have been 6 years ago, but in terms of stories told it has been generations ago.


Because they went tri-monthly? Yeah, that doesn't erase readers' memory of the marriage or the stink of OMD out of people's minds. If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Honestly, I think a 3-book-a-month deadline is part of what made the stories suffer.

Quesada won.


By rigging the game. It's easy to win when you make and can change the rules to fit your wants.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to fault you for preferring Spider-bachelor. If you prefer it that way, cool. I'm simply saying that marriage does not mean a character can't have good and interesting stories.

Also that Quesada is a dumbass, but mostly the marriage-stories thing.

...

What the heck is that "Batwoman" header doing in this thread?!

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:14 pm

Should I bother writing a thesis complete with quotes, links and whatever like I'm still in high school?

JMS is a washed up, unprofessional lazy writer who's changed his version of stories dozens of times since OMD. Quesada and others always stuck by their version.

Quesada won. JMS is stuck in Bob Harass's basement writing OGN's.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:28 pm

The Shadow wrote:Be honest here, but could your dislike of OMD possibly be colouring your opinions of the stories that followed just a bit?


Honestly? No. I didn't like what they did, but I was willing to give these stories a shot...for two years. If the storytelling had been good, I would've still hated OMD, but accepted BND. Eventually, I chose to say goodbye and get rid of the really bad ones.

I can name 24 people that I know who died of lung cancer from my grandfather and three aunts to a former school friend... but can't name a single person who has made a pact with a demonic entity. Can you??


Probably Joe Quesada...also, not my point. Smoking is bad, very true. However, "Satan" doesn't have to mean the actual devil. It can refer to any nefarious person offering an ethically questionable deal.

On one hand you're basically saying the quality suffered because JMS wasn't there and thus the sales went down but you neglect to mention ASM went almost weekly at that point and sales might have dropped because of that.


I'm not saying JMS had to stay on. I'm saying that stories weren't as good (yes, partially because of the tri-monthly schedule, I'm sure).

No, Marvel felt Peter worked better single. You may disagree with that, but your disagreement doesn't make it idiotic.


No, what made it idiotic was a disregard for storytelling and characterization.

If the marriage was organic and made sense, you might have a point. But it was only done because Stan was doing it in the newspaper strip. Peter and MJ had recently broken up and had to hastily be reunited to make it work.


That hardly excuses the methodology behind OMD.

OMD was a means to an end. It wasn't meant to be Watchmen... it was meant to undo a 21 year mistake. That's all.


A story doesn't have to be Watchmen to be good. OMD wasn't. Despite JMS' best efforts, while readable, it wasn't good, because it was all about Joe Q getting what he wanted. And I still don't see how the marriage was a mistake. Call it a marketing thing if you like, but it lasted for over two decades, and when they decided to erase it with vague innuendo that didn't get explained for years, fans responded by dropping the title in the thousands.

GHERU wrote:NO, just no
Mary Jane was a horrible wife. How many times did she leave Peter only to come back when she couldn't make it on her own
Right before OMD she let the whole world believe that she was sleeping with Tony Stark, even though everyone knew she was married to a school teacher


As I recall, she exited the building, was accosted by a photographer that accused her of cheating, and she simply let him believe what he wanted (remember, the guy worked for a tabloid that was going to print whatever sold). It was to protect Peter's secret. Stark later bought the paper and did the scary businessman thing.

Married heroes or no, I don't really care, but I'm sick of MJ getting a pass as a great wife who made a side deal with Satan at the end of OMD. A good wife would have told her husband the truth, that he was about to make a horrible choice, instead, she agreed so that she would have a better career.


Yeah...that's what Quesada wanted. He didn't like MJ, so he wanted her written as having been responsible for the deal with Mephisto, and using crappy logic in OMIT to explain why they didn't get married. He wanted her vilified to the readers, so they would see her as he always did. He didn't care that it was against her character to do so.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby SporkBot » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:36 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:Should I bother writing a thesis complete with quotes, links and whatever like I'm still in high school?

JMS is a washed up, unprofessional lazy writer who's changed his version of stories dozens of times since OMD. Quesada and others always stuck by their version.

Quesada won. JMS is stuck in Bob Harass's basement writing OGN's.


If you could back up your arguments at all, it'd be something. You entered into a conversation, you made the claims, I don't see the problem in providing sources. If you have something that counters what I offered, I'm open to reading it. I haven't seen Straczynski change his story, only that he rarely talked about it beyond the circulated paragraphs about disagreeing but ultimately respecting Joe Q and Marvel.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Bianco » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:38 pm

I tried to skim through the 10 pages of comments, first I agree with those who think that writers who can't write about marriage are lazy, & narrow minded people who can't think outside of there box, Spider-man sales were fine during his marriage years, same for Superman, and I'm sure Batwoman would have been fine also. Joe Q didn't break the internet with OMD he broke comics.

There are ways around it, when the Ultimate series first came out it was perfect, single spider-man updated stories, and you still had the main guy also.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:41 pm

SporkBot wrote:
Honestly? No. I didn't like what they did, but I was willing to give these stories a shot...for two years. If the storytelling had been good, I would've still hated OMD, but accepted BND. Eventually, I chose to say goodbye and get rid of the really bad ones.



Probably Joe Quesada...also, not my point. Smoking is bad, very true. However, "Satan" doesn't have to mean the actual devil. It can refer to any nefarious person offering an ethically questionable deal.



I'm not saying JMS had to stay on. I'm saying that stories weren't as good (yes, partially because of the tri-monthly schedule, I'm sure).



No, what made it idiotic was a disregard for storytelling and characterization.



That hardly excuses the methodology behind OMD.



A story doesn't have to be Watchmen to be good. OMD wasn't. Despite JMS' best efforts, while readable, it wasn't good, because it was all about Joe Q getting what he wanted. And I still don't see how the marriage was a mistake. Call it a marketing thing if you like, but it lasted for over two decades, and when they decided to erase it with vague innuendo that didn't get explained for years, fans responded by dropping the title in the thousands.



As I recall, she exited the building, was accosted by a photographer that accused her of cheating, and she simply let him believe what he wanted (remember, the guy worked for a tabloid that was going to print whatever sold). It was to protect Peter's secret. Stark later bought the paper and did the scary businessman thing.



Yeah...that's what Quesada wanted. He didn't like MJ, so he wanted her written as having been responsible for the deal with Mephisto, and using crappy logic in OMIT to explain why they didn't get married. He wanted her vilified to the readers, so they would see her as he always did. He didn't care that it was against her character to do so.


Agreed here. I would also add that this is the same MJ that shot the Green Goblin with a gun to protect her husband, called the Avengers to come to his rescue when the Sinister 12 were beating his ass, has emotionally supported and encouraged Peter during his hardships, visited Aunty May when she was dying in the hospital and has even risked her life against Dr. Octopus, Venom, Carnage, Hobgoblin, Vulture and various other threats to Peter and others she cared about. I can list other examples where's she's been a good wife to Peter but the point is that whatever shit characterization she's gotten is either by writers who don't know or like her as a character.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Draco x » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:43 pm

Bianco wrote:I tried to skim through the 10 pages of comments, first I agree with those who think that writers who can't write about marriage are lazy, & narrow minded people who can't think outside of there box, Spider-man sales were fine during his marriage years, same for Superman, and I'm sure Batwoman would have been fine also. Joe Q didn't break the internet with OMD he broke comics.

There are ways around it, when the Ultimate series first came out it was perfect, single spider-man updated stories, and you still had the main guy also.


This right here.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby doombug » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:00 pm

Chris wrote:
I am ok with seperating them from a story standpoint. It was Quesada's belief that divorcing them would age Peter that was stupid. The whole deal with the devil business is the problem there.

Mostly because the second you start to break down the story that OMD became it just flat out doesn't work on any level for any of the characters involved. :lol:

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby doombug » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:Should I bother writing a thesis complete with quotes, links and whatever like I'm still in high school?

JMS is a washed up, unprofessional lazy writer who's changed his version of stories dozens of times since OMD. Quesada and others always stuck by their version.

Quesada won. JMS is stuck in Bob Harass's basement writing OGN's.

I want to be angry at you right now but for that last sentence I can't be. :lol:

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby TimH » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:03 pm

fieldy snuts wrote:JMS is a washed up, unprofessional lazy writer who's changed his version of stories dozens of times since OMD.


What? Just because he commits to story arcs--then gets bored halfway through and disparages anybody who would hold him to his assignments-- doesn't mean he's a writer. I think you should amend your quote. He's definitely a washed up, uprofessional, lazy carbon-based life form.

It's important to keep your facts clear.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby doombug » Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:08 pm

The ending of the twelve rips off Robinson's Golden Age.

(We're just making disparaging comments against JMS now, right?)
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