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Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams III Walk Off Batwoman

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Punchy
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Punchy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:32 pm

doombug wrote:
Jesus christ, you're being an idiot.

I would never say that statement about Mark Waid, Dan Slott, Zeb Wells, Grant Morrison or Greg Pak because to my knowledge they all wrote Spider-man before BND as well as after.

It was Quesada's decision and he's an artist not a writer who forced a stupid decision on his writing staff.

Spider-man still absolutely had the "parker luck" while married. It absolutely didn't interfere with the storytelling possibilities directly related to the character. He was married for over 20 years without anyone going "Uh excuse me, I can't write this character right now because he's married"

JMS's entire fan favorite run? the character was married.

Saying that marriage inhibits storytelling is just flat out a dumb statement. :smt102


You can't say it's flat-out dumb, it's a matter of opinion. I personally feel that Brand New Day reinvigorated Spider-Man and made the character a lot more interesting. I also don't think they could have done the brilliant Superior Spider-Man story if Peter was still married, MJ would figure it out instantly, so hey, there's a concrete example, if Peter was still married it would have INHIBITED the story Slott is currently telling.

You may disagree, but hey, Marvel agree with me, and that's what counts.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby doombug » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:34 pm

It's not the spider marriage that's the issue though. The whole argument that Punchy is using doesn't work.

Whether it be Lois/Clark, Peter/Mary Jane or even as big as Reed and Sue.

These marriages (and yeah only 1 of them still exists) exist in comics for decades or longer without writers having any issue coming up with stories featuring them or keeping to the core of the character.

it's not the marriage that's the issue, it's the editorial force or a lazy writer not even attempting to try to write for a pre existing status to a character or their world that no one had an issue with until that person came into the picture as the creative force on it.

Seriously that's what I'm saying here and that's what I keep seemingly repeating.

Saying "Marriage inhibits storytelling" is the worst possible scapegoating you can do. :smt102
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Jack Burton » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:39 pm

doombug wrote:It's not the spider marriage that's the issue though. The whole argument that Punchy is using doesn't work.

Whether it be Lois/Clark, Peter/Mary Jane or even as big as Reed and Sue.

These marriages (and yeah only 1 of them still exists) exist in comics for decades or longer without writers having any issue coming up with stories featuring them or keeping to the core of the character.

it's not the marriage that's the issue, it's the editorial force or a lazy writer not even attempting to try to write for a pre existing status to a character or their world that no one had an issue with until that person came into the picture as the creative force on it.

Seriously that's what I'm saying here and that's what I keep seemingly repeating.

Saying "Marriage inhibits storytelling" is the worst possible scapegoating you can do. :smt102


Oh I agree.

Look at DC as far as I can see they retconned or ended almost every single marriage they had.

It's like every company thinks marriage is a horrible story limiting thing and it's not.

I honest to god think if Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't the ones to write/draw Reed and Sue's wedding back in 60's somebody would ret-con it.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:39 pm

Punchy wrote:I also don't think they could have done the brilliant Superior Spider-Man story if Peter was still married, MJ would figure it out instantly, so hey, there's a concrete example, if Peter was still married it would have INHIBITED the story Slott is currently telling..


God, if only...

"brilliant" :lol:

I wish someone or something would inhibit Slott's entire run on this book since Big Time.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Punchy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:40 pm

Chris wrote:
God, if only...

"brilliant" :lol:

I wish someone or something would inhibit Slott's entire run on this book since Big Time.


Superior Spider-Man is great, come on!

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby doombug » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:41 pm

Jack Burton wrote:
Oh I agree.

Look at DC as far as I can see they retconned or ended almost every single marriage they had.

It's like every company thinks marriage is a horrible story limiting thing and it's not.

I honest to god think if Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't the ones to write/draw Reed and Sue's wedding back in 60's somebody would ret-con it.


Oh it wasn't you I was trying to explain it to. And yeah, if it wasn't Stan and Jack who did it all those years ago you can bet Reed would be exploring his sexuality and Sue and Ben would be together at this point. :lol:

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:43 pm

Punchy wrote:
Superior Spider-Man is great, come on!


Nope!

I can't even look ahead to Peter returning because the book was even worse WITH Peter in the year or so leading into the relaunch.
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Jack Burton » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:44 pm

doombug wrote:
Oh it wasn't you I was trying to explain it to. And yeah, if it wasn't Stan and Jack who did it all those years ago you can bet Reed would be exploring his sexuality and Sue and Ben would be together at this point. :lol:


I have been trying not to be one of those internet guys but if somebody divorces Reed and Sue I think I would become one.

More so since they are now the last couple standing.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Punchy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:44 pm

Chris wrote:
Nope!

I can't even look ahead to Peter returning because the book was even worse WITH Peter in the year or so leading into the relaunch.


You're crazy!

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Punchy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:45 pm

doombug wrote:
Oh it wasn't you I was trying to explain it to. And yeah, if it wasn't Stan and Jack who did it all those years ago you can bet Reed would be exploring his sexuality and Sue and Ben would be together at this point. :lol:


They did that in the Ultimate Universe, it was great.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby doombug » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:48 pm

Punchy wrote:
They did that in the Ultimate Universe, it was great.

NOT THE GODDAMN POINT! :smt011 :lol:

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Chris » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:48 pm

Punchy wrote:
You're crazy!


Pre-Superior, Peter was Tony Stark Jr., having everything basically going right for him in his personal life now... great job.. making crazy money... inventing shit...

(And you were just arguing against the marriage using Peter needing to be a "loser" earlier, so.. yeah.. not so much anymore.)

Superior: A "spider-man" book starring an entirely unlikeably protagonist who has basically made it impossible to logically have a normal Spider-Man book ever again, because he's basically shown how effective Spider-Man can be when he uses his smarts, which both makes Peter look like a total schmuck for the last 50 years, but also means it'll be tough to go backwards once Pete comes back. What a great way to ruin a character. :lol:

Slott's run is garbage. But I'm clearly in the minority, so maybe I am crazy.

Or... maybe I'm the only sane one!! :groucho:
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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby habitual » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:49 pm

Punchy wrote:
They did that in the Ultimate Universe, it was great.


It's incredible that you're able to type with your head that far up your ass.

Hab

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby Punchy » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:53 pm

habitual wrote:
It's incredible that you're able to type with your head that far up your ass.

Hab


Man, you're such a stick-in-the-mud.

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Re: Midnight Shocker: W. Haden Blackman and J. H. Williams I

Postby HNutz » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:53 pm

Punchy wrote:
You can't say it's flat-out dumb, it's a matter of opinion. I personally feel that Brand New Day reinvigorated Spider-Man and made the character a lot more interesting. I also don't think they could have done the brilliant Superior Spider-Man story if Peter was still married, MJ would figure it out instantly, so hey, there's a concrete example, if Peter was still married it would have INHIBITED the story Slott is currently telling.

You may disagree, but hey, Marvel agree with me, and that's what counts.


OR... Slott would have incorporated MJ and Peter growing apart as part of the story.

Nah, I think Slott's run would be pretty much the same with or without MJ.

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