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[Punchy]

Hey, I understand the appeal that it has, especially for writers who want quick explanations to justify new villains and plotlines.

But leaving magic undefined allows for a lot of bad storytelling. To use a non-Bendis example, One More Day.

That story wasn't bad because of the Magic wasn't fully explained.

To be honest, I can't think of many stories in which magic is actually defined, perhaps only really RPG videogames.

[Eli Katz]

Thank you Eli.

Anytime.

[Victorian Squid]

I'm pretty sure back in House of M or Disassembled when Wanda was doing crazy shit all over the place that Dr Strange made the point that magic DOES in fact have rules. It just isn't used like it does.

There doesn't have to be a Magic Users Guide for Marvel but there should be some established consistency what various magical characters can do based on their origins and power sets. Dr Voodoo shouldn't be using the same spells or magic type as Dr Strange even if he's the Sorceror Supreme.

[Eli Katz]

That story wasn't bad because of the Magic wasn't fully explained.

To be honest, I can't think of many stories in which magic is actually defined, perhaps only really RPG videogames.

If magic is left undefined, then magic has the power to do anything. In the case of OMD, it had the power to change 20 years of comic history.

In a universe where anything can happen, nothing has consequence. Deaths are undone, characters come and go, and when something stupid happens, it can be changed quickly with a convenient spell. This is deus ex machina -- the worst form of storytelling, ever.

If you like that sort of thing, that's fine. I don't.

[Punchy]

If magic is left undefined, then magic has the power to do anything. In the case of OMD, it had the power to change 20 years of comic history.

In a universe where anything can happen, nothing has consequence. Deaths are undone, characters come and go, and when something stupid happens, it can be changed quickly with a convenient spell. This is deus ex machina -- the worst form of storytelling, ever.

If you like that sort of thing, that's fine. I don't.

That's the nature of Marvel and DC superhero comics though, don't condemn Bendis for just doing what every other writer is. If you malign him for this, you may as well give every Marvel or DC comic a bad score. You have to take certain things for granted, and you can't apply the same storytelling conventions that you would a standalone Noir comic to a Marvel Universe book.

[******]

That's the same thing I am talking about with mansions that disappear

Figment of your imagination.

[Victorian Squid]

That's the nature of Marvel and DC superhero comics though, don't condemn Bendis for just doing what every other writer is. If you malign him for this, you may as well give every Marvel or DC comic a bad score. You have to take certain things for granted, and you can't apply the same storytelling conventions that you would a standalone Noir comic to a Marvel Universe book.

This is why magic-based titles have a tough time lasting as a series--people grow disinterested when too much deus ex machina is applied.

[Punchy]

This is why magic-based titles have a tough time lasting as a series--people grow disinterested when too much deus ex machina is applied.

Not just a magic problem, someone mega-cosmically-powered like the Silver Surfer has the same problem.

Bendis himself cited this as the reason why he lowered Strange's powers a bit in New Avengers, but got just as much criticism.

[Victorian Squid]

Not just a magic problem, someone mega-cosmically-powered like the Silver Surfer has the same problem.

Bendis himself cited this as the reason why he lowered Strange's powers a bit in New Avengers, but got just as much criticism.

Agreed, it's one reason I don't enjoy the cosmic-level books very much, and people often remark that Surfer would be a very difficult character to write long-term.

[Eli Katz]

That's the nature of Marvel and DC superhero comics though, don't condemn Bendis for just doing what every other writer is. If you malign him for this, you may as well give every Marvel or DC comic a bad score. You have to take certain things for granted, and you can't apply the same storytelling conventions that you would a standalone Noir comic to a Marvel Universe book.

Sure, I recognize there's a difference between Scalped and New Avengers. And I don't judge them by the same criteria.

Even so, inconsistencies in storytelling take the reader out of the story, whether it's about petty crooks or men in tights. If you are asking, "Hey, how did that happen?" while you're flipping through a book, the suspension of disbelief is lost and the story is ultimately ruined. A good story, regardless of genre, will build a logical plot and follow some kind of rules. If a magician is extremely powerful in one scene and then, without explanation, is a totally ineffective wimp in another, that's bad storytelling.

[Punchy]

Agreed, it's one reason I don't enjoy the cosmic-level books very much, and people often remark that Surfer would be a very difficult character to write long-term.

It's why he works best as a guest-appearance.

I'm interested to see how well Brubaker manages to use the now uber-powerful Nova in Secret Avengers, it's the same thing, any threat the SA face, Nova could probably take out in one blast.

[Eli Katz]

Agreed, it's one reason I don't enjoy the cosmic-level books very much, and people often remark that Surfer would be a very difficult character to write long-term.

I don't like cosmic books, either.

[Punchy]

Sure, I recognize there's a difference between Scalped and New Avengers. And I don't judge them by the same criteria.

Even so, inconsistencies in storytelling take the reader out of the story, whether it's about petty crooks or men in tights. If you are asking, "Hey, how did that happen?" while you're flipping through a book, the suspension of disbelief is lost and the story is ultimately ruined. A good story, regardless of genre, will build a logical plot and follow some kind of rules. If a magician is extremely powerful in one scene and then, without explanation, is a totally ineffective wimp in another, that's bad storytelling.

But in the MU, the answer to the question 'How did that happen?' can always be answered with 'It's magic', and that should be satisfactory, it's a mysterious unexplainable force.

[Victorian Squid]

It's why he works best as a guest-appearance.

I'm interested to see how well Brubaker manages to use the now uber-powerful Nova in Secret Avengers, it's the same thing, any threat the SA face, Nova could probably take out in one blast.

[spoiler]Since it looks like he's gonna put on that serpent crown, I'm betting the rest of the Secret Avengers better be worried about that too.[/spoiler]

[Eli Katz]

But in the MU, the answer to the question 'How did that happen?' can always be answered with 'It's magic', and that should be satisfactory, it's a mysterious unexplainable force.

Well, I don't find that satisfying.