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ReviewGroup Week176 - DARK AVENGERS/UNCANNY X-MEN: UTOPIA #1

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thefourthman
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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:46 pm

House of J wrote:1) sorry about the blow-up, I'm having a bad day

2) They shouldn't have been there at all. People have a legal right to march if they have gone through the proper procedures, everything here shows this was a legal march. San Fran isn't the X-Men's property.

3) Just because they "wanted to go" doesn't mean Beast should have let them. He is in charge of these minors.

4) Rolling up your sleeves is not recognized as an act of violence that justifies any retaliation whatsoever.

5) "Beast uses poor judgement" -- Excuse me, this is the sort of problem Beast has experience with his entire life. How many fucking marches or protests have there been in the history of the X-Men?! No room for bad judgement here. He's lucky no one was killed.

6) Trask knew...DUH! So I guess he's a whole heckuva lot smarter than one Hank McCoy, ain't he? Trask said...FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

No problem dude. It's just comics. I ain't mad at you.

Beast should have told Trask that he should use another route for his safety. That would have been the smart thing to do.

Humanity Now provokes and is smart enough to wait for the first "blow" to come from the other side. Then they attack a bunch of kids. They get no sympathy from me.

Rolling up sleeves by themselves no, but after saying "Show Time!" and taking a very obvious frontline defense formation, it a sign of not only do they want trouble, they expect and are ready for it. It is just as provocative as what Beast says.

And Beast is smart enough to know that Hellion would be there anyhow and he has a better chance of being able to control him if he lets him be there under supervision then if he says no and lets him sneak out the back.

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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:48 pm

House of J wrote:PS As far as I'm concerned, everyday citizens have every reason to think mutants cause nothing but destruction and cannot solve the simplest conflict without violence at this point. When's the last time the X-Men actually saved the world (no, the giant fucking bullet doesn't count, that was too dumb).

Actually they have been working in conjunction with the SFPD since they moved out west. A fact that is displayed by the way the cops react to the mutants several times in the book.

Part of the move was to distance themselves from all the crap in NY.

I can't believe I am actually defending the x-men, what the hell is going on?

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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:50 pm

House of J wrote:Actually, that says it all.

I almost admire your cut quoting there.

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Postby Victorian Squid » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:52 pm

Punchy wrote:The X-Men were involved in Secret Invasion.


In a capacity so minor, I fished these out of a 50 cent bin and don't even remember them. In the wiki SI page, the X-Men aren't mentioned as main characters nor is their role mentioned in the plot synopsis. And no one bothered to write one for their mini, why bother?

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Postby Punchy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:55 pm

House of J wrote:In a capacity so minor, I fished these out of a 50 cent bin and don't even remember them. In the wiki SI page, the X-Men aren't mentioned as main characters nor is their role mentioned in the plot synopsis. And no one bothered to write one for their mini, why bother?


Wolverine was a big part of it!

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Postby Victorian Squid » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:55 pm

thefourthman wrote:Actually they have been working in conjunction with the SFPD since they moved out west. A fact that is displayed by the way the cops react to the mutants several times in the book.

Part of the move was to distance themselves from all the crap in NY.

I can't believe I am actually defending the x-men, what the hell is going on?


So why am I supposed to believe they are oppressed?!

If they were really that close with the PD, I would hope they knew how NOT to handle a situation like this--exactly like they did. Maybe the SFPD are the ones most guilty of bad judgement here.

I still don't see where they've saved the world there, though.

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Postby Victorian Squid » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:56 pm

Punchy wrote:Wolverine was a big part of it!


Not a mutant, he's a lupine.

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Postby Victorian Squid » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:00 pm

thefourthman wrote:I almost admire your cut quoting there.


But it's true. Legally, the words and sleeves don't matter. The "who was obstructing a legal march" and the "who initiated the violence" do.

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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:02 pm

House of J wrote:So why am I supposed to believe they are oppressed?!

If they were really that close with the PD, I would hope they knew how NOT to handle a situation like this--exactly like they did. Maybe the SFPD are the ones most guilty of bad judgement here.

I still don't see where they've saved the world there, though.

never said they were oppressed, although they have been the target of a vicious gang of violent mutant haters. Didn't say they had saved the world either, just pointing out the general population of San Francisco would have a different view of them than you do.

I am unsure how all the parade crap works, but I imagine you would have to say where you were marching and the local government would have been smart to say that going through this particular part of town was unwise and ask them to move it.

Trask would have just used his political clout to spin that as the government being in bed with the mutants and wanting to suppress their message.

As in real life, none of this would have been easy or have ended well. Trask would have taken the fight anyway he could get it.

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Postby Punchy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:02 pm

House of J wrote:Not a mutant, he's a lupine.


Don't bring Loeb into this!

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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:03 pm

House of J wrote:But it's true. Legally, the words and sleeves don't matter. The "who was obstructing a legal march" and the "who initiated the violence" do.

Legality and reality often differ. Again, if there had been cameras at ground zero, Trask wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on.

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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:04 pm

House of J wrote:Not a mutant, he's a lupine.

your argument is he is a plant?
what the hell did I miss in those Loeb issue of Wolverine?

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Postby Victorian Squid » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:08 pm

thefourthman wrote:never said they were oppressed, although they have been the target of a vicious gang of violent mutant haters. Didn't say they had saved the world either, just pointing out the general population of San Francisco would have a different view of them than you do.

I am unsure how all the parade crap works, but I imagine you would have to say where you were marching and the local government would have been smart to say that going through this particular part of town was unwise and ask them to move it.

Trask would have just used his political clout to spin that as the government being in bed with the mutants and wanting to suppress their message.

As in real life, none of this would have been easy or have ended well. Trask would have taken the fight anyway he could get it.


The bottom line is I don't think the book was at all well-written for the fallacies I'm trying to point out here, and the "oppressed" schtick doesn't hold up when you're in bed with the PD and initiate the violence you claim you want to avoid.

Also, the narrative voices of the X-Men have sucked lately and Hank McCoy being used as an idiotic rube here is a most-irritating example of this.

But I'm having fun watching you try to defend these costumed super-fascists, keep it up.

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Postby thefourthman » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:10 pm

House of J wrote:The bottom line is I don't think the book was at all well-written for the fallacies I'm trying to point out here, and the "oppressed" schtick doesn't hold up when you're in bed with the PD and initiate the violence you claim you want to avoid.

Also, the narrative voices of the X-Men have sucked lately and Hank McCoy being used as an idiotic rube here is a most-irritating example of this.

But I'm having fun watching you try to defend these costumed super-fascists, keep it up.

your fallacies are the fallacies that would happen in real life anyhow.

what is this oppression schtick you are stuck on, I think you are remembering the O.N.E. days which are at least a year removed now.

thanks for correcting the defend, I was already curious about your use of lupine, now offend was starting to bug me. :P

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Postby Victorian Squid » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:25 pm

thefourthman wrote:your fallacies are the fallacies that would happen in real life anyhow.

what is this oppression schtick you are stuck on, I think you are remembering the O.N.E. days which are at least a year removed now.

thanks for correcting the defend, I was already curious about your use of lupine, now offend was starting to bug me. :P



Legal marches and rallies I don't agree with happen with non-violent outcomes all the time. If someone acted as stupidly and irresponsibly as the X-Men did here, maybe violence happens. But someone has to throw the first punch--people are allowed to shout all the crap they want--and the X-Men did that.

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