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DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby Stephen Day » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:03 pm

AngusH wrote:The kind of folks that are looking to take risks, are probably spending more time concentrating on the upcoming Image titles than they are DC/Marvel - favourite writers aside.


There are people who will do both though. I'll gladly buy something like Juice Squeezers from Dark Horse, but I'm also willing to give the new Ms. Marvel and the new Ghost Riders a try. I gave the Movement a shot, I decided I didn't like it after the first issue, but if that hadn't been the case I would have been prepared to continue buying it.
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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby holtom2000 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:08 pm

what was this and green team all about? I couldn't even be bothered to read spoilers for this stuff. can someone sum this up in a couple of lines?
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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby Chessack » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:31 pm

AngusH wrote:I tend to agree - especially with the Big Two. The fact is that there are so many damn books being released by Marvel/DC involving their A-list characters that it's a tough ask to get people to take a risk on a new idea or new characters. The comic reader base is not really a growing crowd from what I gather, and they aren't getting any richer. They'll pick up them shiny #1s, but it's unlikely that they'll still be there for the 2nd or 3rd arcs.

The kind of folks that are looking to take risks, are probably spending more time concentrating on the upcoming Image titles than they are DC/Marvel - favourite writers aside.


So is the risk purely a financial one? People don't want to spend $4 a month for 4-6 months on the chance that they will end up liking the series? I do a certain amount of "sampling" each month so I don't really view this as that much of a risk (other than maybe wasting my time)... but maybe most comic readers are so strapped already, reading all the, as you say, A-list titles, that they have nothing to give over to sampling. If that's true, it sounds like we're saying that the market is tapped out.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby AngusH » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:36 pm

Stephen Day wrote:There are people who will do both though. I'll gladly buy something like Juice Squeezers from Dark Horse, but I'm also willing to give the new the new Ms. Marvel and the new Ghost Riders a try. I gave the Movement a shot, I decided I didn't like it after the first issue, but if that hadn't been the case I would have been prepared to continue buying it.


Me too, but unfortunately, as sales show, we're the minority. I would be more likely to drop a mainstream book to pickup a "different" type of book due to the fact that, speaking generally, they should be less predictable. I'm at an age where I've read enough superhero stories - even when done well, I'd rather read something that touches on something other than endless arcs of the "dastardly Villain hatches plot, Hero/es save the day" cliche that makes up the bulk of Marvel/DC storylines.

Mind you, I won't simply try something because it's trying to be different. I never read The Movement because nothing about it appealed to me. Ms Marvel on the other hand seemed like an interesting experiment, and I'm glad I picked up #1. I'll be onboard until it starts sucking - maybe that's #2, maybe it's number #22. Assuming it's not cancelled before then.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby AngusH » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:46 pm

Chessack wrote:If that's true, it sounds like we're saying that the market is tapped out.


This is my feeling - a limited market has been stretched to it's limit.

Looking at it from a business standpoint, the whole New 52/Marvel NOW was/is about bringing in new readers. As I think the sales clearly show, that's not happening - in fact, maybe the opposite, as they've annoyed/pushed away long-time readers at a quicker rate than they've brought in new ones.

IMO, and I'm sure there are many folks who know better than I, it seems that relaunches are causing existing readers to drop titles they currently collect for the coming month's hyped #1s, and they are then are dropping those relaunches for the NEXT wave of relaunches. I believe most people have their "core" titles that they will pick up every month, and then a finite budget to spread around all the other Ms Marvel/X-Force/Movement/Whatever #1 is coming Next books.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby AngusH » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:53 pm

Final thought: It shows comics are currently priced too high. Cheaper comics, same (likely more) customer base with same budgets, more books bought. It may seem to be a loss because there's less profit per issue to everyone involved, but I believe the healthier number of sales and ongoing titles past issue #12 would begin to reap rewards not all that long down the track.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby alaska1125 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:21 pm

...and the number of people who care may actually number in single digits.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby Chessack » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:23 pm

AngusH wrote:Looking at it from a business standpoint, the whole New 52/Marvel NOW was/is about bringing in new readers. As I think the sales clearly show, that's not happening - in fact, maybe the opposite, as they've annoyed/pushed away long-time readers at a quicker rate than they've brought in new ones.


That's the stated intent, and maybe that's what DC and Marvel thought they were doing (bringing in new readers). But as you say, it didn't work, because they didn't execute it properly. They don't seem to understand that you can't just renumber your comics and then say it's a good jumping on point and have that stick, when it's not actually a good jumping on point. By issue 5 or 6 the New 52 had already become such a confused mess that any truly new reader would have probably given up in frustration. Hell, wasn't new, just returning from a multi-year hiatus, and the difference between Batman and GL, with their "existing" continuity, JL and Action with their "brand new heroes" continuity, and Superman and Wonder Woman with their "five years in but no pre-New 52 backstory" continuity so confused the hell out of me that I almost gave right back up again. The only way I was able to figure out WTF was going on was by having a friend of mine who had never left comics explain to me that Batman and GL had effectively not been rebooted while everything else had, and that JL and Action were taking place 5 years ago, etc. It was not immediately apparent from the narratives as presented at the time. And again, this is a comic vet who yes took time off, but who between 1976 and 1999 had 23 years of comic-book reading experience under his belt. I can't imagine what a true newbie would have thought of it all.

Plus as you say... there is still the (generally) $4 per issue expense... and there is the constant renumbering/relaunching, and there is the incessant crossing over into other titles -- all of these things are barriers to entry, in addition to the convoluted/incomprehensible continuity that reboots or relaunches are supposed to fix, but never do (instead they make it worse -- "which version of Superman is this now?").

They can't renumber the comics, call it a "reboot" (or "relaunch") and keep doing the same old shit that only appeals to a teeny-tiny itty-bitty population of people, and expect to broaden their fan base. It'd be like McDonalds and Burger King giving up everything but fish sandwiches and then relaunching the McFish and BKFish under new names and new ad campaigns every 18 months. Sure the tiny number of people who prefer the fish to burgers would love it but the vast majority of their patrons would just give up or switch to Wendy's or something.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby syxxpakk » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:30 pm

AngusH wrote:Looking at it from a business standpoint, the whole New 52/Marvel NOW was/is about bringing in new readers. As I think the sales clearly show, that's not happening - in fact, maybe the opposite, as they've annoyed/pushed away long-time readers at a quicker rate than they've brought in new ones.


I can't speak to Marvel, but DC sells more books now than they did the three years prior to the new 52.
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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby AngusH » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:10 am

syxxpakk wrote:I can't speak to Marvel, but DC sells more books now than they did the three years prior to the new 52.


Outside of the initial jump for the New 52, their market share is back to pre-New 52 levels:

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatistic ... hares.html

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby AngusH » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:25 am

Chessack wrote:That's the stated intent, and maybe that's what DC and Marvel thought they were doing (bringing in new readers). But as you say, it didn't work, because they didn't execute it properly. They don't seem to understand that you can't just renumber your comics and then say it's a good jumping on point and have that stick, when it's not actually a good jumping on point. By issue 5 or 6 the New 52 had already become such a confused mess that any truly new reader would have probably given up in frustration. Hell, wasn't new, just returning from a multi-year hiatus, and the difference between Batman and GL, with their "existing" continuity, JL and Action with their "brand new heroes" continuity, and Superman and Wonder Woman with their "five years in but no pre-New 52 backstory" continuity so confused the hell out of me that I almost gave right back up again. The only way I was able to figure out WTF was going on was by having a friend of mine who had never left comics explain to me that Batman and GL had effectively not been rebooted while everything else had, and that JL and Action were taking place 5 years ago, etc. It was not immediately apparent from the narratives as presented at the time. And again, this is a comic vet who yes took time off, but who between 1976 and 1999 had 23 years of comic-book reading experience under his belt. I can't imagine what a true newbie would have thought of it all.

Plus as you say... there is still the (generally) $4 per issue expense... and there is the constant renumbering/relaunching, and there is the incessant crossing over into other titles -- all of these things are barriers to entry, in addition to the convoluted/incomprehensible continuity that reboots or relaunches are supposed to fix, but never do (instead they make it worse -- "which version of Superman is this now?").


I didn't read a single comic between 1994 and late 2011. The New 52 re-launch actually worked out perfectly for me, especially as I'd never read a single DC comic before - I was all Marvel originally. I tried to get into Marvel as well, but I had no idea where to begin. Despite this, I don't really think the New 52 was the way to go, because it's incredibly shortsighted. Already it's been over 2 years of storylines that new readers will not be able to easily pick any of the books up.

From a business level I think the price rises, gimmicks, and relaunches are netting DC and Marvel enough to cover stalling/flagging sales in the short term, but at the risk of hurting the format longterm. I couldn't imagine getting into comics as a kid today - it's an expensive hobby for someone even my age with a decent job.

I prefer print, but digital is clearly the future, and I think it will take an iTunes-like revolution to the format to keep the industry healthy well into the future - monthly digital releases priced similar to single songs on iTunes.

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RE: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby Richard Meyer » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:39 am

Hmm, that’s weird. I would have thought political correctness, class warfare and gender politics would have been a better sell.

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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby Bond Hengbu » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:49 am

holtom2000 wrote:what was this and green team all about? I couldn't even be bothered to read spoilers for this stuff. can someone sum this up in a couple of lines?

Wacky bunch of younbg bilionares decide to become superheroes and run afoul of people who want to steal their money and one of the characters father might be a villain...

It;'s a fun nonbpreachy book where the rivh are not complete aholes. If they wanted to go Movement preaachy the characters would run around Ayn Rand all the time.
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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby holtom2000 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:52 am

Bond Hengbu wrote:Wacky bunch of younbg bilionares decide to become superheroes and run afoul of people who want to steal their money and one of the characters father might be a villain...

It;'s a fun nonbpreachy book where the rivh are not complete aholes. If they wanted to go Movement preaachy the characters would run around Ayn Rand all the time.


that sounds just awful
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Re: DC Shocker: The Movement Cancelled

Postby syxxpakk » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:04 am

AngusH wrote:
Outside of the initial jump for the New 52, their market share is back to pre-New 52 levels:

http://www.comichron.com/vitalstatistic ... hares.html


Check out this thread: the-asylum/the-business-comics-part-with-charts-t100506.html
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