Thursday, December 13, 2018 • Evening Edition • "The comic book industry's inflamed butthole."

The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

Comics news, comic book reviews, feature articles about comics, interviews with comic creators, plus the greatest comic book and pop culture discussion in the Outhouse forums!

Advertisement

Op-Ed On Stan Lee: Don't Make Me Be That Guy

Hey you! Reader! Want to be a part of the GREATEST COMIC BOOK AND GEEK COMMUNITY on the web?! Well, they're not accepting new members, but we'll take anyone here, so why not sign up for a free acount? It's fast and it's easy, like your mom! Sign up today! Membership spots are limited!*

*Membership spots not really limited!

User avatar

LOLtron

Rain Partier

Postby LOLtron » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:28 pm

Let's discuss the myth, the legend, but most of all, the man.




It's been roughly 48 hours since news broke Stan Lee died; his contributions to the comics medium as a whole are nearly untouchable and in the time since his death, they've been extensively covered. Dearly beloved, we're gathered here today to discuss the myth, the legend, but most importantly the man, Stan Lee, the pen name Stanley Lieber created in order to save his real name for more literary pursuits.

Stan didn't create Marvel Comics in 1961 with Jack Kirby, as some places reported. Nor did he single-handedly create iconic characters such as The Fantastic Four or X-Men, as reported by other places.

What Stan did was popularize the use of the plot script, commonly known as the Marvel Method of script writing. With a plot script, an artist works from a story synopsis from the writer, rather than a full script. After the issue is drawn, the writer goes back in and dialogues based on the art.

Stan spoke in The Art of Ditko about his use of this writing method with Steve Ditko, artist and co-creator of Spider-Man.

"I'd dream up odd fantasy tales with an O. Henry type twist ending. All I had to do was give Steve a one-line description of the plot and he'd be off and running. He'd take those skeleton outlines I had given him and turn them into classic little works of art that ended up being far cooler than I had any right to expect."

With the Marvel Method, a script can be as simple as "Spider-Man stops Sandman from robbing a bank." The majority of the work falls on the artist to create, as opposed to the writer. There's even conflicting reports of Stan's input, with some reports stating that he received pages and stories created by artists including Jack Kirby, in which Stan would just dialogue.

In a 1966 interview with the Chicago Sun Times, for instance, Stan uses "we" denoting a group effort.

times.png

 

Then in the magazine's captions, it's said that "he" created these characters. Again, it could be misrepresentation by the media. But it's unknown whether the editor took it upon himself to credit Stan as sole creator or if he informed them.

times1.png

 

Regardless, his collaborators weren't too happy with him singularly taking credit. Sick magazine #48 saw Joe Simon (Kirby's ex-partner) taking shots at Stan's need for credit at Marvel.

sick.jpg

 

Angel and Ape #2, by Sergio Aragones, Wally Wood, and Bob Oksner, had characters mimicking Roy Thomas and Stan Lee discussing taking credit for work that wasn't theirs.

ape.jpg

 

In Rocket's Blast Comicollector #81, Kirby says that Fantastic Four was his idea and it wasn't a co-creator situation, leading him to go to DC Comics.

ff.jpg

 

By contrast, Stan claimed sole creatorship of the Fantastic Four in the 1974 book Origins of Marvel Comics.

origins.jpg

 

Likewise, a 1963 fan letter has Stan giving Ditko sole credit for the idea of Dr. Strange.

letter.jpg

 

But once again in Origins, Stan changes the story, explaining it was a childhood memory of Chandu, the Magician that was the inspiration for Dr. Strange and that Ditko just "took up the art chores."

strange.jpg

 

In the end, it's unclear how much of a hand Stan had in creating the staples of the Marvel Universe. Especially when those with a voice echo his own view that he alone created all the Marvel characters. Someone tell Hugh Jackman that Wolverine was created by Roy ThomasLen Wein, and John Romita Sr.

 

 

It's likely that your mom only knows Stan as "the old guy from the movies who created all these characters." And it's even more likely Stan wouldn't have wanted it any other way.



Written or Contributed by Tim Midura


READ THIS ARTICLE ON THE FRONT PAGE, HUMANS!
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:53 pm

Nobody's making you be that guy except you.
User avatar

RobThompson

cheese

Postby RobThompson » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:12 pm

chap22 wrote:Nobody's making you be that guy except you.

I'm done with him. Apparently, the only thing that makes him feel good in life is to shit on people after they die.
User avatar

Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:21 pm

So much for "we punch up not down" :smt011
User avatar

timmidura

luchadore

Postby timmidura » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:37 pm

chap22 wrote:Nobody's making you be that guy except you.


You’re right. I should’ve just posted a picture of me meeting Stan and called it a day.
User avatar

timmidura

luchadore

Postby timmidura » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:39 pm

RobThompson wrote:I'm done with him. Apparently, the only thing that makes him feel good in life is to shit on people after they die.


What part was shitting on him? When I quoted him? Or when I said he didn’t single handedlt create all the Marvel characters?
User avatar

HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:58 pm

chap22 wrote:Nobody's making you be that guy except you.


RobThompson wrote:I'm done with him. Apparently, the only thing that makes him feel good in life is to shit on people after they die.


Like he did when Steve Ditko passed away... Or like he did after Burt Reynolds died...

There's a reason there's a petition against Tim.

timmidura wrote:
What part was shitting on him? When I quoted him? Or when I said he didn’t single handedlt create all the Marvel characters?


No, you're right. 48 hours after Stan Lee's passing is definitely the time to say "Eh, he was overrated."

Ugh. :smt011
User avatar

timmidura

luchadore

Postby timmidura » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:10 pm

HNutz wrote:


Like he did when Steve Ditko passed away... Or like he did after Burt Reynolds died...

There's a reason there's a petition against Tim.



No, you're right. 48 hours after Stan Lee's passing is definitely the time to say "Eh, he was overrated."

Ugh. :smt011



What's the appropriate amount of time? I can always unpublish and wait until your approved amount of time.

And I'm not saying he was overrated. I'm saying people should know more about him before they put him on a pedestal.

There's a petition against me? Where do I sign?
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:25 pm

timmidura wrote:

What's the appropriate amount of time? I can always unpublish and wait until your approved amount of time.

And I'm not saying he was overrated. I'm saying people should know more about him before they put him on a pedestal.

There's a petition against me? Where do I sign?


What people here, at the Outhouse of all places, do you really think don't know all of that already? Do you think we all haven't had that exact conversation, on this very board among other places, probably a hundred times before? Moreover, why do you think YOU have to be the guy to say it? Your own title for this thread admits you know you're being a dick and going out of your way to piss on the man's grave while the body's barely cold. Does this give you some unearned sense of self-importance? Raising an unnecessary, and more pointedly, unoriginal argument right at the moment when nobody else cares to hear or discuss it?

It's a dick move, Tim, plain and simple. And you knew it when you did it. So knock off all the faux "Y U MAD\what would you have me do?" hogswallop.
User avatar

Scintillant-H

#1,984 on Deathstroke's Hit List

Postby Scintillant-H » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:31 pm

I guess Id say a week after the death would be appropriate, though this soon is definitely better than on the day of. By a LOT, honestly. And thats not a bash on anything in the past, at the moment, its actually a credit right now: "well, it wasn't on THE DAY Stan died."

This is actually a really good read. Just that, let's take the "one week later" hypothetical... they run the "he died" article, with 90% of it being all "beloved icon dies" and only a teeny 10% (or less) just briefly mentioning "there were questions as to how he may have taken credit for more than was necessary, but that's not what we're here for right now. That's for another time. [Continues 90%]" essentially marking the promise for this particular article one week later.

Im not in the "I hate this OH writer guy" camp or anything so I cant say if this approach would appease anyone who is. Id just look at something like this and "hm... distasteful, but it could have been worse and it WAS a good read so happy points where they're due" and just look at the fact that Im more agitated by my fave characters being written like shit than I am by a moreorless lowkey distasteful article on OH.
That said, Im not talking down about anyone taking more of an offense to this article than me, this is just how I feel personally. :)

Carry on with the bash on both sides, gents :deadpool this is what makes The Outhouse The Outhouse 8)
User avatar

timmidura

luchadore

Postby timmidura » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:38 pm

chap22 wrote:
What people here, at the Outhouse of all places, do you really think don't know all of that already? Do you think we all haven't had that exact conversation, on this very board among other places, probably a hundred times before? Moreover, why do you think YOU have to be the guy to say it? Your own title for this thread admits you know you're being a dick and going out of your way to piss on the man's grave while the body's barely cold. Does this give you some unearned sense of self-importance? Raising an unnecessary, and more pointedly, unoriginal argument right at the moment when nobody else cares to hear or discuss it?

It's a dick move, Tim, plain and simple. And you knew it when you did it. So knock off all the faux "Y U MAD\what would you have me do?" hogswallop.


Of course I know what I did. And why did I have to be the one who wrote it? Because every other comics site out there is writing canned puff pieces about an infallible god.
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:51 pm

Yeah Tim, you're a regular Woodward & Bernstein. Way to stick it to The Man. :roll:
User avatar

LiamA

cheese

Postby LiamA » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:58 pm

Hitler is the only person you can bad mouth in death.
User avatar

achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:01 pm

chap22 wrote:
What people here, at the Outhouse of all places, do you really think don't know all of that already? Do you think we all haven't had that exact conversation, on this very board among other places, probably a hundred times before? Moreover, why do you think YOU have to be the guy to say it? Your own title for this thread admits you know you're being a dick and going out of your way to piss on the man's grave while the body's barely cold. Does this give you some unearned sense of self-importance? Raising an unnecessary, and more pointedly, unoriginal argument right at the moment when nobody else cares to hear or discuss it?

It's a dick move, Tim, plain and simple. And you knew it when you did it. So knock off all the faux "Y U MAD\what would you have me do?" hogswallop.


True enough. I certainly knew all that when I started the original thread, and chose not to mention it, but rather let people grieve as they want to following the death of a legit comic book legend. And I'm not known for being terribly up on most comic book creators. But Stan Lee wasn't most of anything.
User avatar

HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:13 pm

timmidura wrote:

What's the appropriate amount of time? I can always unpublish and wait until your approved amount of time.


If you have to ask yourself "Is this too soon?", it's probably too soon. But it seems like you're missing the common social skills to ask, as noted by your other pieces.

Maybe you should wait until they're in the ground next time. Waiting until after the funeral isn't asking too much, is it?

And I'm not saying he was overrated. I'm saying people should know more about him before they put him on a pedestal.


And that could probably wait a day or two, right?

There's a petition against me? Where do I sign?


In the link I provided.

leave a comment with facebook


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: FaceBook [Linkcheck], Google [Bot], sdsichero and 40 guests