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DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It's Tuesday

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed May 08, 2013 4:12 pm

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby chap22 » Wed May 08, 2013 4:50 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:Marvel might have better female characters, but at least DC's readers actually support their female characters by buying their books.


DC readers also supported Final Crisis, Flashpoint, and DC's current DCnU output, 90% of which is utter dreck. that argument doesn't gain much traction for me.
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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby habitual » Wed May 08, 2013 4:54 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:Marvel might have better female characters, but at least DC's readers actually support their female characters by buying their books.


So nobody bought The Avengers and The X-Men during the 80's?

:smt017

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby Mr. Log » Wed May 08, 2013 5:14 pm

chap22 wrote:pulling a top 10 is tough b/c everybody's opinion is gonna be different, but per my thoughts on the most non-objectionable objective "best", and in no particular order:

DC:
Wonder Woman
Batgirl
Black Canary
Zatanna
Power Girl
Supergirl
Catwoman
Starfire
Hawkgirl
pick one from: Stargirl/Raven/Mary Marvel/Jade/Fire/Ice/Big Barda/whoever

Marvel:
Invisible Woman
She-Hulk
Wasp
Scarlet Witch
Ms. Marvel
Storm
Kitty Pryde
Black Widow
Rogue
pick one from: Spider-Woman/Crystal/Medusa/Psylocke/Jean Grey/whoever

honestly...I love DC, and I'd still side with Marvel on this one. and once you go past that top 10, Marvel's MUCH deeper.


See, I look at those lists, and I think I have to give it to DC. Both lists have some of my favorite females, and both have some of my most hated characters, too. But especially after going to the bench, I think DC's are just more interesting. That is really hard for me to say, too, because Invisible Woman and Kitty top all female character lists (now that Oracle is gone (fuck you, DCnU!)). Since you tried to create objective top tens, and they're hard to argue from an influence perspective, I'll pick 5 off the bench, purely subjective favorites, just to see how it goes:

DC:
Fire, Ice, Barda, Elasti-Girl, Montoya Question (Again, fuck you DC)

Marvel:
Siryn, Stature, M, Medusa, Molly Hayes

Harder than I expected on both. Hmm, this is closer than the top tens for me.

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby GiveWarAChance » Wed May 08, 2013 5:45 pm

habitual wrote:
So nobody bought The Avengers and The X-Men during the 80's?

:smt017

Hab

I was talking about books that just contain female characters. I think just about every team from DC and Marvel contain at least one female character. Just because a guy reads The Avengers doesn't mean he's reading it for the Wasp.
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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby habitual » Wed May 08, 2013 5:49 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:I was talking about books that just contain female characters. I think just about every team from DC and Marvel contain at least one female character. Just because a guy reads The Avengers doesn't mean he's reading it for the Wasp.


But the bulk of Marvel books are team books, some of which had women as team leaders.

Is that somehow anti-female?

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Last edited by habitual on Wed May 08, 2013 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby The Old Doctor » Wed May 08, 2013 5:50 pm

BoP.
"Why are you pointing your screwdrivers like that? They're scientific instruments, not water pistols."
"Oh, the pointing again! They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?"
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""Timey" what? "Timey wimey"?"

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby GiveWarAChance » Wed May 08, 2013 5:51 pm

chap22 wrote:
DC readers also supported Final Crisis, Flashpoint, and DC's current DCnU output, 90% of which is utter dreck. that argument doesn't gain much traction for me.

The same exact argument could be placed towards the readership of Marvel. Marvel readers equally support dreck. That wasn't my point anyways. DC readers have a tradition of supporting female characters in their solo books for long periods of time, while Marvel readers don't even give them a chance.
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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby habitual » Wed May 08, 2013 5:53 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:The same exact argument could be placed towards the readership of Marvel. Marvel readers equally support dreck. That wasn't my point anyways. DC readers have a tradition of supporting female characters in their solo books for long periods of time, while Marvel readers don't even give them a chance.


Since DC has a much higher percentage of "solo books" I don't think that's an accurate comparison.

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby GiveWarAChance » Wed May 08, 2013 5:57 pm

habitual wrote:
But the bulk of Marvel books are team books which had women as team leaders.

Is that somehow anti-female?

Hab

I never said it was anti-female. I like Marvel's female characters, whether their on a team or solo. Out of the big two, I primarily read Marvel comics. I'm just giving props to DC's readers for supporting their female characters in their solo books.
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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby habitual » Wed May 08, 2013 6:01 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:I never said it was anti-female. I like Marvel's female characters, whether their on a team or solo. Out of the big two, I primarily read Marvel comics. I'm just giving props to DC's readers for supporting their female characters in their solo books.


I understand that, the fact that Marvel as a company doesn't have the same number of solo books for either male or female characters is what you're not considering.

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby GiveWarAChance » Wed May 08, 2013 6:16 pm

Marvel would put out more female solo books if they sold. If there was a demand for it, Marvel would supply more and more comics. 6 out of 8 female books at DC outsell all of Marvel's, and they are higher up in their numbering.

DC

36. Wonder Woman #19 - 46,492
37. Batgirl #19 - 45,939
67. Batwoman #19 - 31,538
72. Supergirl #19 - 29,558
76. Catwoman #19 - 28,058
80. Worlds Finest #11 - 27,453
96. Birds of Prey #19 - 21,707
127. Katana #3 - 16,157

Marvel

90. Fearless Defenders #3 - 23,514
112. Captain Marvel #12 - 18,344
117. Journey Into Mystery #651 - 17,443
136. Red She-Hulk #64 - 15,055
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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby chap22 » Wed May 08, 2013 6:22 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:Marvel would put out more female solo books if they sold. If there was a demand for it, Marvel would supply more and more comics. 6 out of 8 female books at DC outsell all of Marvel's, and they are higher up in their numbering.

DC

36. Wonder Woman #19 - 46,492
37. Batgirl #19 - 45,939
67. Batwoman #19 - 31,538
72. Supergirl #19 - 29,558
76. Catwoman #19 - 28,058
80. Worlds Finest #11 - 27,453
96. Birds of Prey #19 - 21,707
127. Katana #3 - 16,157

Marvel

90. Fearless Defenders #3 - 23,514
112. Captain Marvel #12 - 18,344
117. Journey Into Mystery #651 - 17,443
136. Red She-Hulk #64 - 15,055

Well, devil's advocate argument is that, outside of WW, who no one will argue against bring the primary female super heroine at either company, and Katana which is selling like a shitburger at a gourmet restaurant, every one of those DC books is Bat- or Super-related, which adds numbers that otherwise wouldn't be there.

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby chap22 » Wed May 08, 2013 6:26 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:The same exact argument could be placed towards the readership of Marvel. Marvel readers equally support dreck. That wasn't my point anyways. DC readers have a tradition of supporting female characters in their solo books for long periods of time, while Marvel readers don't even give them a chance.

Spider-Girl got something like 135 issues between her 3 series.
Ms. Marvel has had series go 22, 50, and currently.
Jess Drew got 50 as Spider-Woman
Shulkie's gotten 3 or 4 volumes that each had solid multi-year runs

Outside of Wondy and the aforementioned Bat- and Super-female books, DC hasn't exactly lit it up with solo books either

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Re: DC Still Treats Women Like Second Class Citizens AKA It'

Postby habitual » Wed May 08, 2013 6:36 pm

GiveWarAChance wrote:Marvel would put out more female solo books if they sold. If there was a demand for it, Marvel would supply more and more comics. 6 out of 8 female books at DC outsell all of Marvel's, and they are higher up in their numbering.

DC

36. Wonder Woman #19 - 46,492
37. Batgirl #19 - 45,939
67. Batwoman #19 - 31,538
72. Supergirl #19 - 29,558
76. Catwoman #19 - 28,058
80. Worlds Finest #11 - 27,453
96. Birds of Prey #19 - 21,707
127. Katana #3 - 16,157

Marvel

90. Fearless Defenders #3 - 23,514
112. Captain Marvel #12 - 18,344
117. Journey Into Mystery #651 - 17,443
136. Red She-Hulk #64 - 15,055


Marvel seems far more successful selling team books than DC does with their solo titles.

Just because a female character is written well in a team book doesn't take anything away from the character. That argument is a red herring.

Hab

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