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chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:18 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
I do, too -- because the only thing wrong with Ray Palmer is that he is a white, heterosexual male.

DC has a lot of things that various people don't like about it, and some of it is over the top, just hatred for hatred's sake.

But one thing that people should always be disappointed with is diversity for diversity's sake.

There was nothing wrong with Ryan Choi, just as there's nothing inherently wrong with Rhonda Pineda. Any writer can use those characters and give them a good backstory and make them interesting.

But they don't have to be the Atom, with that set of powers. It doesn't have to be that way. DC has the ability to create new characters, new concepts -- and there are people receptive to that sort of thing.

No one is saying that you can't have a Ryan Choi or a Rhonda Pineda be heroic characters in the DC Universe. You absolutely can.

It's just frustrating when DC acts like being so heavy-handed with it, giving you one to the exclusion of the other, is the only answer you have.

For example, the Justice League could clearly use, I don't know, some type of telepath on the roster. You know, since the Martian Manhunter is evidently never going to be on the verstion of the team he originally founded, once upon a time. Why couldn't that kind of character, a telepath or a telekinetic or a magnetism-based character, or a geokinetic, something like that, have been Rhonda Pineda's character?

Why would that have been bad?

It's not even difficult to do it. You could have Ray Palmer and Rhonda Pineda, so easily. You could have BOTH. You give new readers something AND old readers something.

DC just...they just don't get it. Somebody there, for over 20 years now, always seems to feel that you only get one. It's a horrible way to do business.

This is exactly what I've been saying for years, only yours is probably a bit more eloquent. There is one very simple truth I stand by, that is so simple in its logic, and so logical in its simplicity, that I just cannot understand why DC can't get it:

More good characters are better than less.


That's it. You don't have to kill or push aside Connor to have Ollie. Or Kyle or Guy or John to have Hal. Or Wally to have Barry. Or Ray to have whatever new ethnicity they think they need to appease. There's room for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. There's room for Donna and Cassie. There are ways you can use all these characters and tell good stories. MORE good stories than tey're telling now. But they don't get it.

I loved loved LOVED Ryan Choi's book, but those stories could've been told with Ray. But I also loved when Ray and Ryan teamed up. You could've given Ryan the Dwarfsar name/look instead of making him a villain.

This is not rocket science. But the just don't get it.
User avatar

habitual

Silly French Man

Postby habitual » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:36 pm

chap22 wrote:This is exactly what I've been saying for yers, only probably a bit more eloquently. There is one very simple truth I stand by, that is so simple in its logic, and so logical knits simplicity, that I just cannot understand why DC can't get it:

More good characters are better than less.


That's it. You don't have to kill or push aside Connor to have Ollie. Or Kyle or Guy or John to have Hal. Or Wally to have Barry. Or Ray to have whatever new ethnicity they think they need to appease. There's room for Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. There's room for Donna and Cassie. There are ways you can use all these characters and tell good stories. MORE good stories than tey're telling now. But they don't get it.

I loved loved LOVED Ryan Choi's book, but those stories could've been told with Ray. But I also loved when Ray and Ryan teamed up. You could've given Ryan the Dwarfsar name/look instead of making him a villain.

This is not rocket science. But the just don't get it.


:lol:

Moran. :smt005

Hab
User avatar

holtom2000

dINGO

Postby holtom2000 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:14 pm

Yah I don't begrudge new Atoms, but make an Atom family or something.. replacing? Not a fan
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:47 pm

habitual wrote:
:lol:

Moran. :smt005

Hab

Yeah clearly (and by the rest if my post above, i mean CLEARLY :lol: ) I meant his was more eloquent than mine. My bad.
User avatar

ElijahSnowFan

cheese

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:19 pm

chap22 wrote:Yeah clearly (and by the rest if my post above, i mean CLEARLY :lol: ) I meant his was more eloquent than mine. My bad.


Ha! No worries!

You know what's really frustrating? Clearly, Geoff Johns started reading comic books within no more than two years, either way, than the rest of us late-70s starters. So he KNOWS first-hand that there are other ways to do this that are extremely viable.

For example, I think it would be safe to say that "All-New, All-Different" X-Men is CLEARLY the most successful type of thing that we're talking about that DC could do.

Not only did Marvel find the right mix of marrying an old concept and a few older characters with a few new or underused characters, they actually developed those new/underused characters to the degree that one of them, Wolverine, is arguably, and quite possibly easily, the single-most popular character created since 1970.

Marvel had the same problem as DC: The vast majority of their created characters were white males, with the majority of those coming in the 1960s. So what do you do?

You don't create "Roberto Drako," the Latin American Iceman.
You don't create "Warriki Worthigaki," the Asian Angel.

You create Ororo Munroe and Piotr Rasputin and Kurt Wagner. Then, you create Roberto Da Costa and Xian Coy Manh and Danielle Moonstar.

You create sustainable characters who grow into their own niches, who develop their own fanbases. Characters who some will see as reflections of themselves and allow you to meet the goal of diversity while also creating new means of character interaction and growth.

Like Chap said, this isn't rocket science. It's not even that difficult.

It just requires a company to not be lazy, not be cynical, and not always assume that its the old readers who are always the problem.

Old readers don't only want characters they know. Old readers want new characters, too -- very much so.

What old readers don't want is new characters who are really old characters, but only with a different color palette or gender swap.
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:51 am

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Ha! No worries!

You know what's really frustrating? Clearly, Geoff Johns started reading comic books within no more than two years, either way, than the rest of us late-70s starters. So he KNOWS first-hand that there are other ways to do this that are extremely viable.

For example, I think it would be safe to say that "All-New, All-Different" X-Men is CLEARLY the most successful type of thing that we're talking about that DC could do.

Not only did Marvel find the right mix of marrying an old concept and a few older characters with a few new or underused characters, they actually developed those new/underused characters to the degree that one of them, Wolverine, is arguably, and quite possibly easily, the single-most popular character created since 1970.

Marvel had the same problem as DC: The vast majority of their created characters were white males, with the majority of those coming in the 1960s. So what do you do?

You don't create "Roberto Drako," the Latin American Iceman.
You don't create "Warriki Worthigaki," the Asian Angel.

You create Ororo Munroe and Piotr Rasputin and Kurt Wagner. Then, you create Roberto Da Costa and Xian Coy Manh and Danielle Moonstar.

You create sustainable characters who grow into their own niches, who develop their own fanbases. Characters who some will see as reflections of themselves and allow you to meet the goal of diversity while also creating new means of character interaction and growth.

Like Chap said, this isn't rocket science. It's not even that difficult.

It just requires a company to not be lazy, not be cynical, and not always assume that its the old readers who are always the problem.

Old readers don't only want characters they know. Old readers want new characters, too -- very much so.

What old readers don't want is new characters who are really old characters, but only with a different color palette or gender swap.


Waitaminute. I remember making this argument about the new person calling himself Alan Scott. If I remember the responses accurately, you must be a homophobe.
User avatar

ElijahSnowFan

cheese

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:26 am

Spektre wrote:
Waitaminute. I remember making this argument about the new person calling himself Alan Scott. If I remember the responses accurately, you must be a homophobe.


Instead of losing my patience and simply going off on what might the single-stupidest comment directed at me online EVER, I'm going to actually try to respond to this with some modicum of patience.

First, no, I'm not a homophobe. The logic leap you made is inaccurate. So, in the interest of keeping this message board civil, in the future, don't attempt to label me as anything about social issues. Because you don't know me at all. You barely know what I think about comic books. So maybe you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking you know more than that. You don't.

I'm reading Earth 2, and it doesn't bother me one bit that Alan Scott is gay. That's a different Alan Scott, and those are his adventures.

I would also like to read stories about the Golden Age Alan Scott, who is the father of Jade and Obsidian. I remain disappointed that DC appears to have absolutely no interest in using members of the Justice Society from the Golden Age.

What I would not have liked to have seen is DC saying the Golden Age Alan Scott was gay, in contradiction to all the stories where he clearly is not.

I hope that offers you the clarity you are seeking, instead of you assuming.
User avatar

thefourthman

Outhouse Editor

Postby thefourthman » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:30 am

This is what I don't understand about the Nu52, or really anything the company has done since Infinity Crisis. If the multiverse is in play; use it. You can have Jaime Martinex the Blue Beetle of Earth 5 and Ted Kord the Blue Beetle of Earth 23 and Lex Luthor the Blue Beetle of Earth 51. Why have ten Batman books and have them all set on the same Earth. It's dumb.
User avatar

MrBlack

WTF is this rank?

Postby MrBlack » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:27 am

holtom2000 wrote:Yah I don't begrudge new Atoms, but make an Atom family or something.. replacing? Not a fan

They could call themselves Molecule!
User avatar

holtom2000

dINGO

Postby holtom2000 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:45 am

MrBlack wrote:They could call themselves Molecule!

zing!
I also miss the real JSA... like a lot

MikeinLA

Post Whore

Postby MikeinLA » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:38 am

thefourthman wrote:This is what I don't understand about the Nu52, or really anything the company has done since Infinity Crisis. If the multiverse is in play; use it. You can have Jaime Martinex the Blue Beetle of Earth 5 and Ted Kord the Blue Beetle of Earth 23 and Lex Luthor the Blue Beetle of Earth 51. Why have ten Batman books and have them all set on the same Earth. It's dumb.



In a way they are doing that. Not all the Bat books are set in the Nu52 universe, because of Legends of the Dark Knight, Lil Gotham, etc aren't part of continuity.
User avatar

Spektre

penile prisoner

Postby Spektre » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:28 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
Instead of losing my patience and simply going off on what might the single-stupidest comment directed at me online EVER, I'm going to actually try to respond to this with some modicum of patience.

First, no, I'm not a homophobe. The logic leap you made is inaccurate. So, in the interest of keeping this message board civil, in the future, don't attempt to label me as anything about social issues. Because you don't know me at all. You barely know what I think about comic books. So maybe you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking you know more than that. You don't.

I'm reading Earth 2, and it doesn't bother me one bit that Alan Scott is gay. That's a different Alan Scott, and those are his adventures.

I would also like to read stories about the Golden Age Alan Scott, who is the father of Jade and Obsidian. I remain disappointed that DC appears to have absolutely no interest in using members of the Justice Society from the Golden Age.

What I would not have liked to have seen is DC saying the Golden Age Alan Scott was gay, in contradiction to all the stories where he clearly is not.

I hope that offers you the clarity you are seeking, instead of you assuming.


LOL, Read my original post again.

And while you're there, think about how this attempt to be PC is undermining your originally good point.
User avatar

Eric Ratcliffe

Staff Writer

Postby Eric Ratcliffe » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:56 pm

holtom2000 wrote:How many different Atoms have their been now? The Suicide Squad one? Choi? This girl? Keep shoving them down our throats, and we'll keep telling you we prefer Ray Palmer.

Ryan Choi was awesome. I miss the character. :smt102
User avatar

Draco x

Fagorstorm

Postby Draco x » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:42 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
I do, too -- because the only thing wrong with Ray Palmer is that he is a white, heterosexual male.

DC has a lot of things that various people don't like about it, and some of it is over the top, just hatred for hatred's sake.

But one thing that people should always be disappointed with is diversity for diversity's sake.

There was nothing wrong with Ryan Choi, just as there's nothing inherently wrong with Rhonda Pineda. Any writer can use those characters and give them a good backstory and make them interesting.

But they don't have to be the Atom, with that set of powers. It doesn't have to be that way. DC has the ability to create new characters, new concepts -- and there are people receptive to that sort of thing.

No one is saying that you can't have a Ryan Choi or a Rhonda Pineda be heroic characters in the DC Universe. You absolutely can.

It's just frustrating when DC acts like being so heavy-handed with it, giving you one to the exclusion of the other, is the only answer you have.

For example, the Justice League could clearly use, I don't know, some type of telepath on the roster. You know, since the Martian Manhunter is evidently never going to be on the verstion of the team he originally founded, once upon a time. Why couldn't that kind of character, a telepath or a telekinetic or a magnetism-based character, or a geokinetic, something like that, have been Rhonda Pineda's character?

Why would that have been bad?

It's not even difficult to do it. You could have Ray Palmer and Rhonda Pineda, so easily. You could have BOTH. You give new readers something AND old readers something.

DC just...they just don't get it. Somebody there, for over 20 years now, always seems to feel that you only get one. It's a horrible way to do business.


That's the same way I feel about Azrael in the way that they decided to throw Jean Paul Valley under the bus and give us Michael Lane as they probably thought that Lane being black would have created an interest in the character for the sake of diversity. The problem was that Lane could have worked as a separate character outside of the Azrael mythos instead he just felt like he was forced down our throats as a generic replacement character. I am all for diversity and so on but do it in the right way where it's not at the expense of an established character the readers clearly liked better.
User avatar

alaska1125

dINGO

Postby alaska1125 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:01 pm

Look.folks, I'm.going to punch myself in the face after I type this, but I have an almost nonexistent issue with introducing new characters with legacy names. If it's done well (Wally West, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, etc...). That's the key. I have no real issue with this new Atom...except Ray Palmer exists in this new version of the DCU. Because why, exactly? The Alan Scott example doesn't hold water because he's still Green Lantern (albeit a new version). Ray Palmer was a supporting character in Frankenstein...And he developed the miniature tech for their mobile base. A nice lead in to his becoming the Atom? Or not. The Azrael stuff seem like a pretty ridiculous point of contention as JPV' s story was over. Why not introduce a new one?

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