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[ElijahSnowFan]

The bitching about Identity Crisis is exactly what I'm talking about.

"Oh no! They fucked up Sue Dibny and the third Robin's dad! Fuck you Didio for destroying these characters that I have grown up with! And rape? That's worse than murder! How dare a supervillain that has killed countless people try and rape! It makes no sense!"

Get a grip.

You don't even understand why people were upset.

If you want to have Sue Dibny raped to show that this is serious business, fine. Great. You've made your fictional world really tough.

But you know what? You absolutely, positively and completely screwed up by making it lopsided. The bad guys get to rape your wives, target your families, kill your loved ones.

You, on the other hand...get to call in Zatanna, Mystic Mindwiper Supreme, to hopefully keep Mean Old Doctor Light from finding Lois Lane in a dark alley.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS. UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

The stakes have to be the same for both sides in order for the shared universe to work. Is that truly that difficult to comprehend?

You think anybody truly gives a shit about Sue Dibny? Seriously? Do you truly think anybody gives a damn about SUE DIBNY?

Or do you think what they truly give a shit about is the blatant stupidity of that level of violence going unanswered because the good guys know that the line of work they are in is dangerous?

"Sue Dibny" is nothing more than the metaphor for "escalating violence that you can't adequately address in a shared universe."

Jesus. I thought people had figured that out by now.

[ReturnoftheMack]

You don't even understand why people were upset.

If you want to have Sue Dibny raped to show that this is serious business, fine. Great. You've made your fictional world really tough.

But you know what? You absolutely, positively and completely screwed up by making it lopsided. The bad guys get to rape your wives, target your families, kill your loved ones.

You, on the other hand...get to call in Zatanna, Mystic Mindwiper Supreme, to hopefully keep Mean Old Doctor Light from finding Lois Lane in a dark alley.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS. UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

The stakes have to be the same for both sides in order for the shared universe to work. Is that truly that difficult to comprehend?

You think anybody truly gives a shit about Sue Dibny? Seriously? Do you truly think anybody gives a damn about SUE DIBNY?

Or do you think what they truly give a shit about is the blatant stupidity of that level of violence going unanswered because the good guys know that the line of work they are in is dangerous?

"Sue Dibny" is nothing more than the metaphor for "escalating violence that you can't adequately address in a shared universe."

Jesus. I thought people had figured that out by now.

I think you are projecting your opinions on others.

I also have no idea what your talking about. Your post makes no sense to me and I can't adequately respond. What is the problem?

[GOSD]

I want to pick at least 12 or 13 of them.

[Timbales]

I still mourn the loss of Secret Six.

[ElijahSnowFan]

I think you are projecting your opinions on others.

I also have no idea what your talking about. Your post makes no sense to me and I can't adequately respond. What is the problem?

There is no way that I'm projecting my opinions on others about "ridiculous levels of violence that go unanswered."

Gail Simone called out the industry with the level of violence toward women long before I had given it a second thought.

You and Twig were mocking everyone for caring too much about specific characters. That's ridiculous.

When for most of us, saying Sue Dibny or Ted Kord isn't about those characters at all. Saying "Tim Drake's father" isn't about one specific character. It's about a shift in storytelling that makes no sense. It isn't sustainable. It doesn't work.

DC has created New Earth, then did OYL. Then did Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Then did Flashpoint. All since 2005. All in hopes of resetting these characters to make them "accessible."

They're not accessible because they keep creating these scenarios of escalating violence where there is no out.

[ReturnoftheMack]

There is no way that I'm projecting my opinions on others about "ridiculous levels of violence that go unanswered."

Gail Simone called out the industry with the level of violence toward women long before I had given it a second thought.

You and Twig were mocking everyone for caring too much about specific characters. That's ridiculous.

When for most of us, saying Sue Dibny or Ted Kord isn't about those characters at all. Saying "Tim Drake's father" isn't about one specific character. It's about a shift in storytelling that makes no sense. It isn't sustainable. It doesn't work.

DC has created New Earth, then did OYL. Then did Blackest Night/Brightest Day. Then did Flashpoint. All since 2005. All in hopes of resetting these characters to make them "accessible."

They're not accessible because they keep creating these scenarios of escalating violence where there is no out.

The Joker bludgeoned Jason Todd with a crowbar 25 years ago. How far back do you want to go to avoid this "escalating violence"?

And how is rape escalating over murder? That makes no sense to me.

I also don't think this is the reason most people hate IC. You are definitely projecting. The argument I see the most is "why did she have a flamethrower" not "this was too violent."

[ElijahSnowFan]

The Joker bludgeoned Jason Todd with a crowbar 25 years ago. How far back do you want to go to avoid this "escalating violence"?

And how is rape escalating over murder? That makes no sense to me.

I also don't think this is the reason most people hate IC. You are definitely projecting. The argument I see the most is "why did she have a flamethrower" not "this was too violent."

Ha! You know darn well that I've argued over and over that the Joker became ridiculous as a recurring character from the second after he did that AND shot Barbara Gordon. You can maybe do one. When you do both, it's ridiculous. He's also killed James Gordon's wife. But wait! Let's take him back to Arkham for the 126th time!

Ridiculous character/concept, now.

[ElijahSnowFan]

For the record, as well: Killing Tim Drake's father did nothing to make Tim Drake a better character. If anything, it removed a crucial layer of characterization that differentiated him from Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson and Jason Todd.

But see, that gets lost in the Grim-and-Gritty Era, where body counts trump characterization.

[ReturnoftheMack]

Ha! You know darn well that I've argued over and over that the Joker became ridiculous as a recurring character from the second after he did that AND shot Barbara Gordon. You can maybe do one. When you do both, it's ridiculous. He's also killed James Gordon's wife. But wait! Let's take him back to Arkham for the 126th time!

Ridiculous character/concept, now.

Firstly, I don't know that you've argued that because I don't remember anything you've ever posted.

But let me get this straight because I think I understand now. You are angry that someone like Joker can do all these things, but then the heroes don't react accordingly because they don't kill him? Yet you don't want superheroes to be cynical and lose that innocence?

I don't understand how your argument in this thread and the Waid one are consistent.

[Keb]

You don't even understand why people were upset.

If you want to have Sue Dibny raped to show that this is serious business, fine. Great. You've made your fictional world really tough.

But you know what? You absolutely, positively and completely screwed up by making it lopsided. The bad guys get to rape your wives, target your families, kill your loved ones.

You, on the other hand...get to call in Zatanna, Mystic Mindwiper Supreme, to hopefully keep Mean Old Doctor Light from finding Lois Lane in a dark alley.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS. UTTERLY RIDICULOUS.

The stakes have to be the same for both sides in order for the shared universe to work. Is that truly that difficult to comprehend?

You think anybody truly gives a shit about Sue Dibny? Seriously? Do you truly think anybody gives a damn about SUE DIBNY?

Or do you think what they truly give a shit about is the blatant stupidity of that level of violence going unanswered because the good guys know that the line of work they are in is dangerous?

"Sue Dibny" is nothing more than the metaphor for "escalating violence that you can't adequately address in a shared universe."

Jesus. I thought people had figured that out by now.

It's not so much that they mindwiped people, it's that they fucked with their heads and changed their personalities. They basically neutered Dr. Light for raping Sue Dibny.

In my opinion, bad guys should be raping, bludgeoning children with crowbars and just generally being nasty fucks to everyone. Does that mean the superheroes have to respond in kind by killing supervillains? No. If that were the case, it wouldn't work. I think the progression from ID Crisis to Infinite Crisis proved that. The whole point of the dudes in the JL is that they are above killing, and about rehabilitating. In Dr. Light's case, they fucked up. However, if you remember when WonderWoman snapped whatstheguy's neck, that was her going over the limit.

In my opinion, DC didn't understand how to handle their readership growing up and growing mature. That's why they made the mistakes they made. Then they backpedaled to try and cover it up.

[Herald]

And how is rape escalating over murder? That makes no sense to me.

Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil.

Why did DC have the villain Dr. Light rape Sue Dibny in the first place?? Because they knew that, for their purposes of making what many perceive as a joke character into a particularly vile villain, the usual murder that you can find in any crossover wasn't going to cut it. Neither would that cause the so-called "Power Pact" to want to mindwipe him. As mentioned in the trope entry, they did this to make Identity Crisis a GAME CHANGER.

[ReturnoftheMack]

Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil.

Why did DC have the villain Dr. Light rape Sue Dibny in the first place?? Because they knew that, for their purposes of making what many perceive as a joke character into a particularly vile villain, the usual murder that you can find in any crossover wasn't going to cut it. Neither would that cause the so-called "Power Pact" to want to mindwipe him. As mentioned in the trope entry, they did this to make Identity Crisis a GAME CHANGER.

They also made Jean Loring a particularly vile villain by murdering Sue. They also made Captain Boomerang a particularly vile villain by killing Tim's dad.

Killing is enough if done right.

[ElijahSnowFan]

Firstly, I don't know that you've argued that because I don't remember anything you've ever posted.

But let me get this straight because I think I understand now. You are angry that someone like Joker can do all these things, but then the heroes don't react accordingly because they don't kill him? Yet you don't want superheroes to be cynical and lose that innocence?

I don't understand how your argument in this thread and the Waid one are consistent.

Here's how: I don't want the Joker to be beating children with crowbars, but I do understand that at some point, somebody is going to use the character that way.

But if you do that, then that story is, by definition, a cynical one. You have two choices, then: To either have the hero respond cynically, or have the hero do nothing.

Neither of those work in a shared universe of recurring characters.

What about that is difficult to understand? If Batman kills the Joker...that doesn't work. If Batman lets the Joker run free, he's completely incompetent. That doesn't work, either.

That's no complex thinking at all.

[Keb]

Rape Is A Special Kind Of Evil.

Why did DC have the villain Dr. Light rape Sue Dibny in the first place?? Because they knew that, for their purposes of making what many perceive as a joke character into a particularly vile villain, the usual murder that you can find in any crossover wasn't going to cut it. Neither would that cause the so-called "Power Pact" to want to mindwipe him. As mentioned in the trope entry, they did this to make Identity Crisis a GAME CHANGER.

That was the whole point.

[ElijahSnowFan]

They also made Jean Loring a particularly vile villain by murdering Sue. They also made Captain Boomerang a particularly vile villain by killing Tim's dad.

Killing is enough if done right.

You don't believe that.