The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

by **avengingtitan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:42 am

Doc Jon wrote:
If all your characters are dark and brooding, then not only does it lose the point, but the impact. DId no one learn a lesson from the 90's?

You cant ask that of someone that was born in the 90's.

by **avengingtitan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:44 am

Punchy wrote:
To be fair, Billy Batson was only that plain and good because he was never allowed to change from his 1940s incarnation, lots of characters were like that in the Golden Age but evolved in the 1960s. For some reason DC decided to keep the world of Captain Marvel in a more innocent and childish state than the rest of their properties, it always struck me as odd that in the middle of the modern DCU there was this city that looked like it stepped out of the 1950s. I know it's comics, but it was weird.

I haven't read JL #7 yet, but to me, Captain Marvel's simplicity and cartoonishness never worked as a part of a wider universe, it's no accident that the character who works best in the DCU is Black Adam, who is much more ambiguous (and all you people saying Johns has never got the world of Captain Marvel, why are you forgetting he's the one who re-invented Black Adam and made him one of the most popular anti-heroes in comics a few years back. Remember 52?). A darker Captain Marvel probably works better in the DCU. But of course, there's probably an alternate Earth out there with a more traditional Captain Marvel, the Jeff Smith mini kind of character.

Captain Marvel has been stuck in the golden age forever, unlike other characters, and whilst that may work in small doses like the afore-mentioned Jeff Smith mini, it doesn't really make sense in the DCU, so hold your breath.

Thats why he always worked. He was very innocent yet had the worst villain, but managed to maintain his innocence. Then David S. Goyer made Black Adam an anti hero and Johns ran with it. Then it all went to hell after 52.

by **Punchy** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:09 am

Doc Jon wrote:
If all your characters are dark and brooding, then not only does it lose the point, but the impact. DId no one learn a lesson from the 90's?

There's a difference between not being dark and brooding and being anachronistic. Fawcett City felt like it didn't belong.

by **Grayson** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:06 am

Punchy wrote:There's a difference between not being dark and brooding and being anachronistic. Fawcett City felt like it didn't belong.

They can reinvent Fawcett City if they want but Billy Batson/Captain Marvel should never be dark, brooding, or even anachronistic. The difference between Captain Marvel and every other character is that he is the eternal optimist. He looks at the world through kid's eyes because he literally still is a little boy who has discovered this amazing world of magic and wonder. Yeah, the world around him is shit, we get that, but he doesn't because he is still capable of seeing the good in everyone and everything.

DC doesn't need to reinvent him to make him fit in with the rest of the DCnu, they need to give him to a writer who actually gives a shit about the character and wants to make readers care about him again. They have taken away the Big Blue Boy Scout and in a world now filled with Dark Knights it's a shame that they feel the need to get rid of the Big Red Cheese as well.

by **chap22** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:08 am

Sakie wrote:
They can reinvent Fawcett City if they want but Billy Batson/Captain Marvel should never be dark, brooding, or even anachronistic. The difference between Captain Marvel and every other character is that he is the eternal optimist. He looks at the world through kid's eyes because he literally still is a little boy who has discovered this amazing world of magic and wonder. Yeah, the world around him is shit, we get that, but he doesn't because he is still capable of seeing the good in everyone and everything.

DC doesn't need to reinvent him to make him fit in with the rest of the DCnu, they need to give him to a writer who actually gives a shit about the character and wants to make readers care about him again. They have taken away the Big Blue Boy Scout and in a world now filled with Dark Knights it's a shame that they feel the need to get rid of the Big Red Cheese as well.

*begins slow clap*

by **avengingtitan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:14 am

Sakie wrote:
They can reinvent Fawcett City if they want but Billy Batson/Captain Marvel should never be dark, brooding, or even anachronistic. The difference between Captain Marvel and every other character is that he is the eternal optimist. He looks at the world through kid's eyes because he literally still is a little boy who has discovered this amazing world of magic and wonder. Yeah, the world around him is shit, we get that, but he doesn't because he is still capable of seeing the good in everyone and everything.

DC doesn't need to reinvent him to make him fit in with the rest of the DCnu, they need to give him to a writer who actually gives a shit about the character and wants to make readers care about him again. They have taken away the Big Blue Boy Scout and in a world now filled with Dark Knights it's a shame that they feel the need to get rid of the Big Red Cheese as well.

by **chap22** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:39 am

and Sakie said it well, but i'll just add one more point and be done:

you can call it naive or plain or innocent or childlike or anachronistic or whatever you want to call it to try to play it off as something that doesn't work, but the real heart of the Shazam/Marvel Family concept is that it has been the one property that has throughout the decades maintained the sense of joy that you would think HAS to come with all of a sudden having your ultimate wish fulfilled. now that every hero has to have some kind of tragic backstory (which Billy has actually ALWAYS had) and "realistic" snarky attitude, it was nice to still have 1 hero who did the right thing because it's right and enjoyed doing it. it made him even more unique. even in this opening episode, long before Billy ever meets the wizard, you can tell that Johns has already sucked that sense of joy out of this concept, sacrificing it on the altar of "modern realism" to try and appease the mythical god of "new readers". and it's unnecessary.

by **Doc Jon** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:44 am

Sakie wrote:
They can reinvent Fawcett City if they want but Billy Batson/Captain Marvel should never be dark, brooding, or even anachronistic. The difference between Captain Marvel and every other character is that he is the eternal optimist. He looks at the world through kid's eyes because he literally still is a little boy who has discovered this amazing world of magic and wonder. Yeah, the world around him is shit, we get that, but he doesn't because he is still capable of seeing the good in everyone and everything.

DC doesn't need to reinvent him to make him fit in with the rest of the DCnu, they need to give him to a writer who actually gives a shit about the character and wants to make readers care about him again. They have taken away the Big Blue Boy Scout and in a world now filled with Dark Knights it's a shame that they feel the need to get rid of the Big Red Cheese as well.

Sorry DC doesn't see it your way... :smt011

by **Timbales** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:37 am

Maybe Billy needs the Wizard to give him that sense of joy that is missing from his life now. Just because he's a disillusioned kid (and who wouldn't be, living in foster care all his life) doesn't mean he's bad. He's probably built up walls to protect himself.

by **Doc Jon** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:48 am

Maybe this will be like New Coke (also interchangeable with Angelic Punisher). It will fail so miserably that you guys will get Capt. Marvel back.

by **avengingtitan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:53 am

Timbales wrote:Maybe Billy needs the Wizard to give him that sense of joy that is missing from his life now. Just because he's a disillusioned kid (and who wouldn't be, living in foster care all his life) doesn't mean he's bad. He's probably built up walls to protect himself.

See thats not right. He was always the protector and positive person. He at his young age was homeless and still managed to take care of everyone with a smile on his face.

Watch the dcu short from a few years back or even read Superman/Shazam First Thunder from Judd Winick.

by **avengingtitan** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:53 am

Doc Jon wrote:Maybe this will be like New Coke (also interchangeable with Angelic Punisher). It will fail so miserably that you guys will get Capt. Marvel back.

Doubt it. Thats my wish for the DCnU as a whole though.

by **Timbales** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:57 am

avengingtitan wrote:See thats not right. He was always the protector and positive person. He at his young age was homeless and still managed to take care of everyone with a smile on his face.

Watch the dcu short from a few years back or even read Superman/Shazam First Thunder from Judd Winick.

I saw the short, and liked it, but I don't think a golly gee willikers portrayal is needed to have him be a good kid.

by **Punchy** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:09 am

Sakie wrote:
They can reinvent Fawcett City if they want but Billy Batson/Captain Marvel should never be dark, brooding, or even anachronistic. The difference between Captain Marvel and every other character is that he is the eternal optimist. He looks at the world through kid's eyes because he literally still is a little boy who has discovered this amazing world of magic and wonder. Yeah, the world around him is shit, we get that, but he doesn't because he is still capable of seeing the good in everyone and everything.

DC doesn't need to reinvent him to make him fit in with the rest of the DCnu, they need to give him to a writer who actually gives a shit about the character and wants to make readers care about him again. They have taken away the Big Blue Boy Scout and in a world now filled with Dark Knights it's a shame that they feel the need to get rid of the Big Red Cheese as well.

I didn't say he should be brooding, just a little less 'gee whizz gosh golly'. Unlike most other golden age characters, Captain Marvel never took the steps towards a more realistic tone that others did until now, that's why it's jarring. This take on Captain Marvel should have happened in the 60s or 70s.