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BubbaKanoosh

2009 Most Valuable Poster

Postby BubbaKanoosh » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:17 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:"Heroes" crossing the line. I miss the Silver Age.


Image
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john lewis hawk

Founder of The Outhouse

Postby john lewis hawk » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:30 pm

Grayson wrote:
I think that you'll agree that the Illuminati owe Scott Summers an immediate apology and any perceived crimes should be swiftly expunged from his record.

Just think, what if what the Illuminati has done gets known to the public and they all become criminals. Scott Summers will be seen as a hero. Especially if he kills more of them.
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alaska1125

dINGO

Postby alaska1125 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:38 pm

john lewis hawk wrote:It's due to people's mistrust of society.

I think there is something to this. Sci-fi in the 50's tended to be a response to societal fear of atomic technology in theory. I'd argue that monster movies before and around the same era were a similar response to fear during major world wars. The swing to westerns and war movies wanted to give us the good triumphs versus evil paradigm. Dystopian futures, as pointed out earlier, have been around since Wells...probably forever. But the spate of movies...YA series especially...that are positing that future has really ramped up. I can't get around describing a lot of movies without starting with "In a dystopian future...". Hell, we just had an X-Men movie that fit the bill. That said, it's creeping in to comics. I'm probably just picking at straws, but it feels like there's something there. The 24/7 news cycle of nothing but bad news might be a factor. And of course, I may just be talking out of my ass. I always consider that a viable option.
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Grayson

Outhouse Drafter

Postby Grayson » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:52 pm

john lewis hawk wrote:Just think, what if what the Illuminati has done gets known to the public and they all become criminals. Scott Summers will be seen as a hero. Especially if he kills more of them.


Scott Summers is a hero. He wouldn't kill a member of the Illuminati unless he was left with no other choice or he was possessed by a cosmic deity.
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Kurosawa

Motherfucker from Hell

Postby Kurosawa » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:13 pm

!Pharozonk! wrote:
To me, the peak of DC's output was 1980-1984, just before COIE. I just wish that era could come back to comics somehow.


Yep.

The fact that I'll never get to see the story of the All-Star Squadron all the way to V-Japan day is something I'll always greatly regret.
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OneWhoIsAll

Great Scott!!!

Postby OneWhoIsAll » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:09 pm

Honestly what comes next after this?

They blow up the Earth 1610, because Gah Lak Tus threatens their Earth by merging both Earths and Mile Morals and Reed Richards manages to save some heroes from Earth 1610 and they rage war on the heroes of Earth 616.

Calling it the Civil War II.
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john lewis hawk

Founder of The Outhouse

Postby john lewis hawk » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:02 am

Grayson wrote:
Scott Summers is a hero. He wouldn't kill a member of the Illuminati unless he was left with no other choice or he was possessed by a cosmic deity.

Unless it was Wednesday. Homeboy needs his killing.
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Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:31 am

Cap be all up in Illuminati's faces like "What's up now muthafuckas?' And Stark be all like "Cap, please, let's be reasonab--" and Cap be like "BLAOW! Put a fist in ya chin."
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S.F. Jude Terror

OMCTO

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:04 am

PDH wrote:
Superheroes are actively making it their career to do tasks that are normally left to trained professionals working for a democratically elected government. That is very different from being a Good Samaritan every now and then. And again, we are talking about what gives them the right to do it in the first place, not what gives them the moral responsibility to do it. Those are completely different issues.

Right now the principle you're defending is something like, 'If you believe that an injustice is taking place and you have the power to stop it then you have the moral responsibility to do so.'

So, OK, Rorshach believes that there are terrible injustices happening all over the place and that it would also be an injustice for the people responsible for those crimes to 'merely' suffer a jail sentence, so he goes and kills them all. Ozymandias believes that an even more terrible injustice is about to happen so he drops Cthulhu on New York and slaughters over a million people to save the world.

Now, I'm not even saying that principle is wrong - I agree with Ozymandias, for instance - but note that these examples are taken from the paradigmatic work of comic book deconstructionism and that they are totally in keeping with Good Samaritanism.

A lot of perfectly reasonable sounding principles break down when they get universalised. No general rule is going to be perfect so there are always trade-offs when you're looking for the best general rule to have. In our society, we have decided on balance that certain duties are best left to appropriate authorities and superheroes have taken it upon themselves to violate that general rule and it's an interesting question whether they should or not.



First of all, I'd prefer not to use the term 'deconstructionism' at all but I'm kind of stuck with it because you keep using it. I was exposed to a lot of continental philosophy at university and it basically left me funny in the head for years. It took a serious effort to extricate myself from that and achieve anything like clarity or depth of thought. At this point, it's actually painful for me to even hear the word, especially when people are lumping things like basic literary techniques and 'thinking about the fundamental assumptions of the genre' under the label.

Secondly, as I've pointed out, the stories DON'T reject the principle you've outlined, implicitly or otherwise. The Illuminati sent the Hulk to another planet because they felt that they had the responsibility to protect their world from constant rampages that killed countless innocent people. That is them being Good Samaritans. Rorshach and Ozymandias were being Good Samaritans. As is the Punisher, the Authority and probably the guys from this story, which I haven't even read.

They are people who believe that they have responsibilities to do what they sincerely believe is the right thing (sometimes correctly) even when it is illegal or counter-intuitive.

What you really seem to object to is people who don't share your views on morality being Good Samaritans. Interestingly, this is part of the reasoning against vigilantism: it's fine when everyone has correct moral views but not when you have a plurality of different moral views, some of which are false or dangerous. Practically speaking this will almost always be the case and superhero stories get around this by having every hero more or less share the same woolly, ambiguous values. What if Superman had the beliefs that small town Americans very often have about, say, the point at which a foetus can be considered to have the legal status of an adult human and went around destroying abortion clinics because he believed that he had the responsibility and power to do so?

I can have friendly conversations with Catholics who believe that I'm aiding the mass slaughter of innocent babies because of my pro-choice beliefs. I can do this because we all have a shared commitment to society and its laws, which some would argue that Superheroes disturb.

Finally, I don't believe it is anywhere near as rampant as the genre's clichés are. There are virtually no stories that present consequentialists like Ozymandias in a positive light. We are always the bad guys talking about the 'greater good,' or how 'the ends justify the means. Even Watchmen is only a neutral portrayal of consequentialism, which also contains a neutral portrayal of Randian Objectivism and nihilism so it's probably not worth getting too excited about.


I love how PDH has basically philosophized himself into being a supervillain. :lol:
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john lewis hawk

Founder of The Outhouse

Postby john lewis hawk » Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:26 am

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
I love how PDH has basically philosophized himself into being a supervillain. :lol:

You actually read that?

Also, I'm fairly certain that you're a supervillain if write long ass speeches.
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S.F. Jude Terror

OMCTO

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:11 am

john lewis hawk wrote:You actually read that?

Also, I'm fairly certain that you're a supervillain if write long ass speeches.


It's been an ongoing thing over the course of many months. I first started to notice it during discussions of Avengers vs X-Men. He's totally a supervillain.
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john lewis hawk

Founder of The Outhouse

Postby john lewis hawk » Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:22 am

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
It's been an ongoing thing over the course of many months. I first started to notice it during discussions of Avengers vs X-Men. He's totally a supervillain.

Just for that, when your daughter has her 13th birthday party, I'm inviting a bunch of transvestite hookers to it.
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Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:05 am

alaska1125 wrote:Sci-fi in the 50's tended to be a response to societal fear of atomic technology in theory. I'd argue that monster movies before and around the same era were a similar response to fear during major world wars. The swing to westerns and war movies wanted to give us the good triumphs versus evil paradigm. Dystopian futures, as pointed out earlier, have been around since Wells...probably forever. But the spate of movies...YA series especially...that are positing that future has really ramped up. I can't get around describing a lot of movies without starting with "In a dystopian future...". Hell, we just had an X-Men movie that fit the bill. That said, it's creeping in to comics. I'm probably just picking at straws, but it feels like there's something there. The 24/7 news cycle of nothing but bad news might be a factor. And of course, I may just be talking out of my ass. I always consider that a viable option.


I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that, like all other fads, "this, too, shall pass." Something else will dominate the public psyche 5, 10, 15 years from now and the dystopian trend will go away... and will be replaced by something else.

Take sci-fi for example. The SF genre had gotten into these grim, realistic movies in the late 60s/early 70s -- 2001, Planet of the Apes, etc. That was the style for a long time. Then Lucas came along with his space-fantasy version full of fast action, swashbuckling heroes, and more straightforward good-vs-evil themes, and Star Wars made a killing (WAY more than any SF movie had ever made before), and before we knew it, that style had been adopted and became the norm in Hollywood for years. We had not just SW sequels but SW-clones like Battlestar Galactica, the Last Starfighter, etc, etc.
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Juan Cena

DANG!

Postby Juan Cena » Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:58 pm

BubbaKanoosh wrote:
Image


The Supermobile was cool. I liked how it was used in the Superfriends TV show when Superman and WW did a "Fantastic Voyage"-like trip into the body of Aquaman when he turned into a shark-creature
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Keb

<( ' . ' )>

Postby Keb » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:07 pm

I would spend the day in that car taking out douchey cyclists who use the sidewalk instead of the bike path.

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