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Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

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john lewis hawk
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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby john lewis hawk » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:19 pm

I would use that vehicle to beat up white people.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Keb » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:36 pm

john lewis hawk wrote:I would use that vehicle to beat up white people.

Racist.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby john lewis hawk » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:42 pm

Keb wrote:Racist.

Jealous?

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Keb » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:45 pm

Of you?

Ha

Ha ha

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

no

he he

he he he he

tee hee

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Johnny Smith » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:20 am

I'm glad New Avengers 22 is coming out this week :-D

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Stephen Day » Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:07 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:So it took Hickman what, 40 issues to get to the point here?


Yeah, and that's why I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a fan of, and just don't really enjoy, his writing. I'll get August's two issues just out of curiosity to see the impact of this issue, but then I'm done.
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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby john lewis hawk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 2:25 pm

Keb wrote:Of you?

Ha

Ha ha

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

no

he he

he he he he

tee hee

You're the Paul Walker to my Vin Diesel in The Fast & The Furious movies. In that, I hope you die horribly and get written off while I go pretending to be a tree.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Keb » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:28 pm

john lewis hawk wrote:You're the Paul Walker to my Vin Diesel in The Fast & The Furious movies. In that, I hope you die horribly and get written off while I go pretending to be a tree.

I'd respond to this with something witty but I'm in a ton of pain right now because you're trying to be funny.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby john lewis hawk » Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:40 pm

Keb wrote:I'd respond to this with something witty but I'm in a ton of pain right now because you're trying to be funny.

It doesn't have to deal with your herpes?

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:15 pm

Shingles are painful as fuck.
Victorian Squid wrote:In a DC/Marvel cross-over "all your favorite Marvel characters would catch contextually-transmitted diseases and Steph infections."

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:58 pm

S.F. Jude Terror wrote:
I love how PDH has basically philosophized himself into being a supervillain. :lol:


This is the problem with stories, though. Unlike a real experiment where (in ideal circumstances) reality decides the outcome, in a story the writer decides the outcome. But when you read them it still feels like you've just received some evidence when, of course, you can't get any information out of a story that the creators didn't put in there.

Then when you realise that the people writing these things haven't studied any of the relevant subjects and mostly get their worldviews from other fantasy stories, coupled with the fact that correct moral views will often be counter-intuitive, it's not difficult to see how the majority of fiction could be seriously wrong about some pretty important things.

They laughed at me when I pointed this out but when I built my death-ray, the laughter died. Well who's laughing now, eh? I'll show them, I'll show them all.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:05 pm

Chessack wrote:
Dystopian future is hot right now... it's a fad... a trend. Like all fads, it'll fade and be replaced by something else in a few years.


I don't think so. It's been the main story in sci-fi since the beginning. There are only a few utopian stories.

Most science-fiction is anti-science, anti-rationality, anti-transhumanism, anti-consequentialism horseshit. It's all just variations on the Icarus myth. Scientists in stories are constantly being told that they're 'playing with forces they don't understand,' and that 'there are some things that man is not meant to know' so they should just 'have faith,' in the Force/the Island/the songs of Bob Dylan etc. When they ignore these warnings, it ends in disaster and morons trying to seem wise shake their heads and call it 'hubris.'

The real-life versions of Icarus were the Wright Brothers and their story has a somewhat different ending with a somewhat different moral.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:07 pm

Spektre wrote:
It IS a difference, perhaps under some definitions even a principled one. Certainly not a moral difference. To turn a phrase...or paragraph.

A principled difference between what libertarians do and what the US. Government does is libertarians realize the use of force against another is not made legitiamte simply because it's popular. Morality isn't decided by a vote. This is one of the reasons why libertarian literature sometimes wants to explore the justification behind the government's brand of force, instead of just taking it for granted that it's perfectly fine. It's because it's not obvious that it is perfectly fine.


I agree that it's not obvious that it's perfectly fine. In fact, I would go as far as to say it's nearly always NOT fine. So would most liberals.

The disagreement is on where to draw the line (and even Minarchists draw a line, albeit in their own places for their own reasons).

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:24 pm

Herald wrote:Again, are you going to quibble about what right the superheroes have to take action when that humongous purple guy is sucking on the planet like it was a jawbreaker??


No, I already said that I don't necessarily disagree with that. Either you don't understand me or you're deliberately misrepresenting me.

I'm not saying anything more controversial than that it's worth exploring where the line should be drawn. That's not a bold claim. It shouldn't invite this much ire.

Let me repeat: I am not saying that superheroes shouldn't take the law into their own hands to stop Galactus attacks. Did you not hear me endorse Ozymandias' much more controversial actions in Watchmen? If I don't have a problem with someone killing over a million New Yorkers to stop a nuclear war, then I'm obviously not going to have a problem with Reed Richards killing nobody to stop equivalent consequences, am I?

A true superhero makes a "citizen's arrest" and hands the bad guy off to the police for the court system to sort out. Making yourself "judge, jury, and executioner" is not in keeping with Good Samaritanism.


On many moral theories that would indeed be the case but not on the moral theories of people like Rorshach.

That's why some people might argue for a general rule against taking the law into your own hands: because it's difficult to come up with a different general rule that couldn't be exploited by the likes of Rorshach. Do I personally agree with them? I don't know, I think it's worth thinking about is all.

There are no stories like that because that's what Knights Templar are made of. Once you decide that "the ends justify the means", you'll go to ANY means -- including villainous ones -- to achieve those ends. That's what makes you the villain!


All superheroes are doing precisely that by virtue of being vigilantes. They have all stepped outside of the ordinary boundaries of legal conduct on the grounds that not doing so would lead to terrible ends. Vigilantism is NOT currently recognised as acceptable means in most countries and the Marvel Universe, for one, has explicitly legislated against it more than once.

Half the time you argue that superheroes should break the law to prevent terrible consequences like Galactus eating the world (which is a case of 'the ends justify the means'), then the other half the time you say that people shouldn't do that because that makes them supervillains. Which is it?

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