Wednesday, October 24, 2018 • Midnight Edition • "Guest-starring Wolverine's cold, dead corpse!"

The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

Comics news, comic book reviews, feature articles about comics, interviews with comic creators, plus the greatest comic book and pop culture discussion in the Outhouse forums!

Advertisement

What's Going on with the Batgirls in the DCU?

Hey you! Reader! Want to be a part of the GREATEST COMIC BOOK AND GEEK COMMUNITY on the web?! Well, they're not accepting new members, but we'll take anyone here, so why not sign up for a free acount? It's fast and it's easy, like your mom! Sign up today! Membership spots are limited!*

*Membership spots not really limited!

User avatar

Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Wed May 16, 2018 5:44 pm

The thing is Stooge comment aside. Jim Lee I don't think cares at all. He'll just go with the flow whatever is blowing at the minute. Geoff Johns of the three is the one that probably cares the most. Yes, he was behind the abysmal reason in Titans East, but he went out of his way to mention Cassandra during the whole Rebirth mantra back when it started. He's talking to the next writer Bryan Hill about her. I honestly believe it's because of Scott Snyder where we are now. Him having a voice now that he's basically one of their big writers.

And before you can say, "He isn't a fan of Cass." Remember the man before he became "one of them" was on OH! Pirate Podcast before he got hot. Of course, it's kind of a pity none of that ever was put on a transcript. BUT it's true.

But then there's Didio. I don't know what to make of this man other than the used car salesman and all he cares about is the all mighty dollar and what best way to make a buck. All I know is he at least showed "some" respect to the character during his Outsider run. Which is better than say another who did not at all, and was more tied to all the things that ruined Cassandra. I mean yes he did approve it. But he wasn't alone in it at all. On the bright side, one of those who helped ruin the character is completely gone from DC Comics all together. And Bendis taking a stranglehold over the Superman comics kind of pisses me off because it means the other voice who kind of had a hand in it might come back to the Batman comics.

Those two being the last vestige of that regime. Is all that remains basically.
User avatar

Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Wed May 16, 2018 5:46 pm

achilles wrote:
Substitute Power Girl for Cass and you have my feelings on the subject, so I feel your pain. I mean they went out of their way to diss PG, ruin her, and then explicitly try to replace her with a character who uses the same name. So...yeah, it's nice that some characters are getting a little better treatment in the Rebirth era than previously, but I'm not going to jump for joy while my own favorite is languishing unpublished and ruined. And I don't even get why people whose favorite characters were ruined in the first place by these same clowns should be so grateful because said clowns have repaired a bit of the damage.


It amazes me the ways DC ruined all the cred they put on Karen after her ongoing ended. It seems no one has a handle for what to do with her. And the fact that she's LITERALLY in limbo with her teen successor is like :shock:
User avatar

achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Wed May 16, 2018 5:58 pm

Zechs wrote:
It amazes me the ways DC ruined all the cred they put on Karen after her ongoing ended. It seems no one has a handle for what to do with her. And the fact that she's LITERALLY in limbo with her teen successor is like :shock:


Sigh, yes, it is pretty bad. Hell, when Rama and CBR give a character more respect than she gets from the company that owns her...

Top it off, we don't even know which version of PG is in limbo with Tanya Spears, the classic good one, or the one they used to ruin the character in nu52. Or some other version for that matter. Hell, even nu52 had an opportunity to put her over like she's never been put over before when she took on Darkseid, but then choked and partly hit with that, but mostly whiffed. Yes, nuPG gets to hurt Darkseid probably about as badly as he's been by a solo character, and do some other impressive stuff, all of which is immediately negated by having him laugh it all off and devastate her, a character who literally just walked through his Omega beams to gouge one of his eyes out. Sigh.

And apart from the one DVD, voiced by...someone...she's never even been in an animated show, much less live action. Have Cass or Stephanie? I haven't seen all of WB's animated output just yet. I like Rama's idea from the other day for a Power Girl steaming show, but, given DC's and WB's attitude toward her, it'll never happen. They seem to think she's nothing more than an inferior clone to SG.
User avatar

Spacedog

Expert Post Whore

Postby Spacedog » Wed May 16, 2018 8:47 pm

Zechs wrote:The thing is Stooge comment aside. Jim Lee I don't think cares at all. He'll just go with the flow whatever is blowing at the minute. Geoff Johns of the three is the one that probably cares the most. Yes, he was behind the abysmal reason in Titans East, but he went out of his way to mention Cassandra during the whole Rebirth mantra back when it started. He's talking to the next writer Bryan Hill about her. I honestly believe it's because of Scott Snyder where we are now. Him having a voice now that he's basically one of their big writers.

And before you can say, "He isn't a fan of Cass." Remember the man before he became "one of them" was on OH! Pirate Podcast before he got hot. Of course, it's kind of a pity none of that ever was put on a transcript. BUT it's true.

But then there's Didio. I don't know what to make of this man other than the used car salesman and all he cares about is the all mighty dollar and what best way to make a buck. All I know is he at least showed "some" respect to the character during his Outsider run. Which is better than say another who did not at all, and was more tied to all the things that ruined Cassandra. I mean yes he did approve it. But he wasn't alone in it at all. On the bright side, one of those who helped ruin the character is completely gone from DC Comics all together. And Bendis taking a stranglehold over the Superman comics kind of pisses me off because it means the other voice who kind of had a hand in it might come back to the Batman comics.

Those two being the last vestige of that regime. Is all that remains basically.

Jim Lee used to be synonymous with 90s Marvel, and here he is - DC Comics Publisher. Why? Although a famous comic book artist, he never was creative enough to control the direction of an entire fictional universe like the DCU. Lee doesn't even seem to be that knowledgeable about DC's intellectual properties.

On the other hand, many people have been saying over the years that Jim lee is a clever, smart businessman. That he's way better as a businessman than he is as a Publisher or even artist. I suppose this rumour is true, considering the way he negotiated the sale of Wildstorm to WB/DC - or the way he tricked Moore into keep working for Wildstorm after the company was bought by WB.

DiDio as a car salesman is a very good analogy... when he started at DC, his interviews used to be very stimulating. He used to talk exactly what DC fans wanted to hear. But, after a few years, it became clear that DiDio is all talk, no convincing action. I think Jim Shooter is the guy who best defined DiDio: "an idiot without a plan".

Johns... Johns is well-intentioned but ultimately incompetent. I think he genuinely wants to do the best for his childhood comic book heroes - he only lacks the talent and the intelligence for it.
User avatar

Rebirth NoctourneM

Rain Partier

Postby Rebirth NoctourneM » Wed May 16, 2018 9:32 pm

Can he conduct business once a month? Then by definition he is a better businessman than he is an artist. :lol:
User avatar

Zechs

Outhouse Editor

Postby Zechs » Wed May 16, 2018 10:44 pm

Spacedog wrote:Jim Lee used to be synonymous with 90s Marvel, and here he is - DC Comics Publisher. Why? Although a famous comic book artist, he never was creative enough to control the direction of an entire fictional universe like the DCU. Lee doesn't even seem to be that knowledgeable about DC's intellectual properties.

On the other hand, many people have been saying over the years that Jim lee is a clever, smart businessman. That he's way better as a businessman than he is as a Publisher or even artist. I suppose this rumour is true, considering the way he negotiated the sale of Wildstorm to WB/DC - or the way he tricked Moore into keep working for Wildstorm after the company was bought by WB.

DiDio as a car salesman is a very good analogy... when he started at DC, his interviews used to be very stimulating. He used to talk exactly what DC fans wanted to hear. But, after a few years, it became clear that DiDio is all talk, no convincing action. I think Jim Shooter is the guy who best defined DiDio: "an idiot without a plan".

Johns... Johns is well-intentioned but ultimately incompetent. I think he genuinely wants to do the best for his childhood comic book heroes - he only lacks the talent and the intelligence for it.


I disagree on the talent and intelligence. His Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, JSA, and Adventure Comics say otherwise. His problem is like any writer: he spreads himself too thin. He can't multitask. When he does, it shows. Damn does it show.
User avatar

achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Thu May 17, 2018 8:42 am

Zechs wrote:
I disagree on the talent and intelligence. His Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, JSA, and Adventure Comics say otherwise. His problem is like any writer: he spreads himself too thin. He can't multitask. When he does, it shows. Damn does it show.


His JSA run was very uneven. Don't forget the Thy Kingdom Come storyline, an exercise in decompression. I was wondering if he'd EVER get to the point there, and once again he showed that he meant what he said when he mentioned that he neither understood Power Girl as a character, nor got her appeal. He could never write her at all. Whiny, crying, rescue bait was how he viewed PG. Who is still in limbo, along with his preferred replacement for her. Imagine him doing that to Cassandra Cain.

Also, see Retcon Punch! And his obsessive love for the bad guys as better and cooler than the good guys. Black Adam took over the JSA title during his run for a time, overshining the heroes of the title. For a guy who should have had some affection for those characters, he didn't treat them all that well. He's the guy at DC and WB who enabled Snyder the most; and it was his themes that drove the nu52 and the Snyderverse, even if he didn't write it directly. And I wouldn't call Green Lantern a triumph. He took a decades old Alan Moore story, one of the better things Moore actually did, and crapped all over it. Also see a Martian Manhunterless JLA....he's almost certainly the one who replaced him with Cyborg.
User avatar

Spacedog

Expert Post Whore

Postby Spacedog » Thu May 17, 2018 8:57 am

Even at his best, Johns always was a bit 'meh'. It's interesting to note that some of his best JSA story arcs were done in collaboration with James Robinson and David Goyer.

Also, everybody knows that Johns was the inspiration for the Simple Jack character in 'Tropic Thunder'. :-D

zryson

YOU WILL NEED A NURSE

Postby zryson » Thu May 17, 2018 9:07 am

Zechs wrote:
Wait, you mean the comic book company is NOT run by the Three Stooges? Could have fooled me. :shock: :P


I hope you write more articles Zechs.
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Thu May 17, 2018 9:29 am

Rebirth NoctourneM wrote:Can he conduct business once a month? Then by definition he is a better businessman than he is an artist. :lol:


ZING! :band
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Thu May 17, 2018 9:36 am

Spacedog wrote:Even at his best, Johns always was a bit 'meh'. It's interesting to note that ALMOST ALL of his best JSA story arcs were done in collaboration with James Robinson and David Goyer.

Also, everybody knows that Johns was the inspiration for the Simple Jack character in 'Tropic Thunder'. :-D


Fixed that for you. The only JSA stuff he wrote on his own that was worth mentioning as any good was the Black Reign crossover with Hawkman, the Out of Time 2-parter, and the Black Vengeance 3-parter. And absolutely NONE of the "Justice Society of America" volume (with the Lightning Saga, Thy Kingdom Come, etc) was worth a squirted piss. Just TERRIBLE comics from end to end.
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Thu May 17, 2018 9:41 am

achilles wrote:
His JSA run was very uneven. Don't forget the Thy Kingdom Come storyline, an exercise in decompression. I was wondering if he'd EVER get to the point there, and once again he showed that he meant what he said when he mentioned that he neither understood Power Girl as a character, nor got her appeal. He could never write her at all. Whiny, crying, rescue bait was how he viewed PG. Who is still in limbo, along with his preferred replacement for her. Imagine him doing that to Cassandra Cain.

Also, see Retcon Punch! And his obsessive love for the bad guys as better and cooler than the good guys. Black Adam took over the JSA title during his run for a time, overshining the heroes of the title. For a guy who should have had some affection for those characters, he didn't treat them all that well. He's the guy at DC and WB who enabled Snyder the most; and it was his themes that drove the nu52 and the Snyderverse, even if he didn't write it directly. And I wouldn't call Green Lantern a triumph. He took a decades old Alan Moore story, one of the better things Moore actually did, and crapped all over it. Also see a Martian Manhunterless JLA....he's almost certainly the one who replaced him with Cyborg.


Oh come on now...even the most diehard anti-Johns/Didio/etc hack, if they exhibit any honesty at all, has to admit his GL was a triumphant success (NOTE: that doesn't necessarily mean it was all that GOOD, if that's the route you want to take...just that it was wildly successful, both for Johns and for the property). GL went from basically an afterthought to a true franchise, one that carried at one time like 5 different ongoing titles. Whether you like the giant yellow space bug or the Rainbow Corps or any other ideas Johns had/stole/whatever, there's no denying it worked for DC as a publisher.
User avatar

Spacedog

Expert Post Whore

Postby Spacedog » Thu May 17, 2018 9:45 am

achilles wrote:
His JSA run was very uneven. Don't forget the Thy Kingdom Come storyline, an exercise in decompression. I was wondering if he'd EVER get to the point there, and once again he showed that he meant what he said when he mentioned that he neither understood Power Girl as a character, nor got her appeal. He could never write her at all. Whiny, crying, rescue bait was how he viewed PG. Who is still in limbo, along with his preferred replacement for her. Imagine him doing that to Cassandra Cain.

Also, see Retcon Punch! And his obsessive love for the bad guys as better and cooler than the good guys. Black Adam took over the JSA title during his run for a time, overshining the heroes of the title. For a guy who should have had some affection for those characters, he didn't treat them all that well. He's the guy at DC and WB who enabled Snyder the most; and it was his themes that drove the nu52 and the Snyderverse, even if he didn't write it directly. And I wouldn't call Green Lantern a triumph. He took a decades old Alan Moore story, one of the better things Moore actually did, and crapped all over it. Also see a Martian Manhunterless JLA....he's almost certainly the one who replaced him with Cyborg.

I like some bits and pieces of Sinestro Corps War. Probably because Johns have a hard-on for his villains.

But what bugs me the most about Johns' Green Lantern run is the fact that, despite writing it for almost a decade, there's absolutely no plausible character development in regards to Hal Jordan. Zero. Nothing. Niente. He starts his journey as a moron and finishes it as an imbecile.
User avatar

SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Thu May 17, 2018 10:03 am

Zechs wrote:Geoff Johns of the three is the one that probably cares the most. Yes, he was behind the abysmal reason in Titans East, but he went out of his way to mention Cassandra during the whole Rebirth mantra back when it started. He's talking to the next writer Bryan Hill about her. I honestly believe it's because of Scott Snyder where we are now. Him having a voice now that he's basically one of their big writers.


Johns can be a good writer, but as has been said, perhaps he's been spread too thin. Maybe he has so many ideas he wants to get out at once, and he's in a position to make it happen, that quality control doesn't factor in as much as it should. He's probably the most salvageable of the three, but would still need reigning in.

But then there's Didio. I don't know what to make of this man other than the used car salesman and all he cares about is the all mighty dollar and what best way to make a buck. All I know is he at least showed "some" respect to the character during his Outsider run. Which is better than say another who did not at all, and was more tied to all the things that ruined Cassandra. I mean yes he did approve it. But he wasn't alone in it at all. On the bright side, one of those who helped ruin the character is completely gone from DC Comics all together.


There a reason for the vagueness? Was it Eddie Berganza? I believe he was mentioned in an article I read some time back by Adam Beechen on the whole matter, but only in basic involvement, not like "it was his idea"...

But that aside...yeah, I can't say I'd disagree with the use car salesman analogy...

achilles wrote:And apart from the one DVD, voiced by...someone...she's never even been in an animated show, much less live action. Have Cass or Stephanie? I haven't seen all of WB's animated output just yet.


Cass had a non-speaking cameo in the first part of the Justice League three-parter The Savage Time. In the Vandal-ruled present, she's among Bruce's resistance fighters, running alongside Tim Drake while Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon make out. Also, she was in the video game Dark Tomorrow (again, non-speaking as I recall), but very briefly. But she does have one line (and only one, as I recall) as a Tech Wing vendor in DCUO.

Image
The world may have sunk into totalitarianism, but thankfully, Nightwing's ponytail remains a constant throughout the possible realities.


Stephanie had one appearance in Young Justice Season 2, getting two brief lines when a few of the Team sneak inside a cage full of teens meant for experimentation. She may've appeared in the background as the episode (or any subsequent related episodes) continued, but if so, I didn't notice. Fingers crossed for her in YJ Season 3.

Image
Voiced by Katara/Teen April O'Neil/George Michael Bluth's girlfriend/Wonder Girl, Mae Whitman.


Now, either one of these characters could be great for their own arcs in either an animated movie or an ongoing series. One was born to kill but rejected it, the other is an average girl that put effort into what she did...and both have complicated relationships with one or more of their parents. But as I've ranted, their New52'd histories are terrible, and even when dealing with their GOOD origins, there'd need to be a good creative team to make sure they aren't ham-fistedly rushed, or overly and unnaturally favored when translated to another medium. And while I have faith in Weisman and his team (even though I didn't care much for the first season of SW Rebels, which was the extent of Weisman's involvement as I recall), I've no such faith in other areas of DC-related media. As hypocritical as it may seem, I'd only have confidence in it if I were calling some shots...but I haven't the time nor lip dexterity to kiss enough ass to make it happen anytime soon.
User avatar

chap22

Rain Partier

Postby chap22 » Thu May 17, 2018 10:16 am

Spacedog wrote:I like some bits and pieces of Sinestro Corps War. Probably because Johns have a hard-on for his villains.

But what bugs me the most about Johns' Green Lantern run is the fact that, despite writing it for almost a decade, there's absolutely no plausible character development in regards to Hal Jordan. Zero. Nothing. Niente. He starts his journey as a moron and finishes it as an imbecile.


:lol:

That's the thing I get from Johns...he's a pretty damn good ideas guy (even if most of those ideas are basically expanded versions of stuff he pretended to be doing while playing with his action figures as a kid...I mean, this IS superhero comics so IMO that's not really a bad way to look at it so long as you can craft it into an actual story), he's just a thoroughly mediocre writer of those ideas.

Look at it like this...he gets lauded for JSA, but largely the best stuff was co-written with other folks. He gets credit for a solid Hawkman reinvention, but Gray & Palmiotti wrote an IMO vastly superior run directly after he left. He gets all the credit for the GL renaissance, but Tomasi's concurrent GLC book was consistently better written with much better characterization, even while juggling like 6-7 co-leads as opposed to just one guy. What I still think is the best JLA arc he ever wrote ("Crisis of Conscience"), was co-written with Allan Heinberg. Etc etc.

When he has real writers to collaborate with he gives you better books. When he's left to himself, other writers using his ideas run circles around him.

leave a comment with facebook


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sdsichero and 17 guests

cron