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What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

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Keb
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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Keb » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:03 pm

There are 10 transgendered characters in Sandman?

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Punchy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:52 am

Keb wrote:There are 10 transgendered characters in Sandman?


I guess, although this article seems to count someone mentioned in passing by another character, someone we never actually see as a character, which I would disagree with.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby LobsterJ » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:35 am

Punchy wrote:
A lot of people have issues with the Wanda character, how she's not allowed to go into The Dreaming by the Moon because she's biologically a man, how she dies, how when she dies she appears as an actual woman.

It's a load of nitpicky bullshit really. As Arion says, Wanda is one of the earliest transgender characters, it's ridiculous to complain about her. It's a great step forward to even have her appear at all.

Here's an article from someone who thinks the story was transphobic, some good points, but some nutty ones too: http://www.keepyourbridgesburning.com/2012/06/the-sandman-a-game-of-you/


There are a lot of good points here but also some crazy shit, as you said. But 1. Anything written about trans people in 1991 is going to come across a little questionable 20+ years on and 2. Anything written by a straight white male is going to get attacked by this type of hateful, nitpicky tumblr type.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Zero » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:11 am

If you go into any text featuring trans people looking for transphobia you will find it. Same goes for racism, sexism and any kind of prejudice you pick. If you want to find something, you'll find it.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Punchy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:14 am

Zero wrote:If you go into any text featuring trans people looking for transphobia you will find it. Same goes for racism, sexism and any kind of prejudice you pick. If you want to find something, you'll find it.


Exactly.

Probably the only way to avoid being accused of whatever-phobia is to include no minorities at all! And that's probably worse!

I don't understand minority characters to never be depicted in bad lights or have bad things happen to them.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Punchy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:16 am

LobsterJ wrote:
There are a lot of good points here but also some crazy shit, as you said. But 1. Anything written about trans people in 1991 is going to come across a little questionable 20+ years on and 2. Anything written by a straight white male is going to get attacked by this type of hateful, nitpicky tumblr type.


Yeah, it's like criticising Mark Twain for using the N word, it's not acceptable today, but in 18-whatever? Historical context!

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Zero » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:49 am

Punchy wrote:
Exactly.

Probably the only way to avoid being accused of whatever-phobia is to include no minorities at all! And that's probably worse!

I don't understand minority characters to never be depicted in bad lights or have bad things happen to them.


Well the idea is that once trans people are accepted as 'normal' rather than something special then we can treat them as we would a 'normal' character. Since we're not there yet then exceptions are made to present them in a more positive light than we would were the character a 'normal' white dude.

Personally I feel that 'normalising' minorities is best achieved by not making a fuss and simply treating everyone the same but as I've never been on the wrong side of any kind of prejudice then I tend to defer to those who know more about it than me. It's a question of accepting that we don't live in an ideal world and that until we do certain indulgences are going to be needed.

That's why we get white criminals and black judges on CSI, and why the notion of a straight pride parade is so ludicrous.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Punchy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:01 am

Zero wrote:
Well the idea is that once trans people are accepted as 'normal' rather than something special then we can treat them as we would a 'normal' character. Since we're not there yet then exceptions are made to present them in a more positive light than we would were the character a 'normal' white dude.

Personally I feel that 'normalising' minorities is best achieved by not making a fuss and simply treating everyone the same but as I've never been on the wrong side of any kind of prejudice then I tend to defer to those who know more about it than me. It's a question of accepting that we don't live in an ideal world and that until we do certain indulgences are going to be needed.

That's why we get white criminals and black judges on CSI, and why the notion of a straight pride parade is so ludicrous.


CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Zero » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:04 am

SHITLORD!

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Punchy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:05 am

Zero wrote:SHITLORD!


CISSEXIST!

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Lord Simian » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:20 am

nietoperz wrote:Some people have little or no reading comprehension skills, I guess.


Welcome to The Outhouse, Nietoperz... Hope you survive the experience!

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Lord Simian » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:25 am

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Zero » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:02 am

Punchy wrote:
CISSEXIST!


Fucking Cis. I have a trans friend and we've agreed that the term Cis is detrimental to any kind of debate because all it achieves is adding another layer of narrow terminology to be used or be accused of bigotry.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Punchy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:50 am

Zero wrote:
Fucking Cis. I have a trans friend and we've agreed that the term Cis is detrimental to any kind of debate because all it achieves is adding another layer of narrow terminology to be used or be accused of bigotry.


Yeah, it's dumb. We really don't need it.

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Re: What Graphic Novel Are You Reading?

Postby Keb » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:33 am

Punchy wrote:
I guess, although this article seems to count someone mentioned in passing by another character, someone we never actually see as a character, which I would disagree with.

I got:
Desire (?)
Hal
Wanda
Barbie's landlord

Are we counting Lucifer and the Angels? They're sexless or whatever (they have no genitalia). Are the fairies supposed to be transgendered? Are we counting the boy actors?

Fack!

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