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What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Keb » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Herald wrote:
Then why should DC try to put out series featuring ANY character other than Batman?? HE is the character that sells the best, and is guaranteed to sell, no matter what! So let's just make the DCnU "ALL Batman, ALL the time!" and call it a day! After all, according to "marketing perspective", he's the ONLY character worth anyone's time and effort!

I repeat: Thankfully, even Dan and the Gang know better than that.

Here's another "marketing perspective" for you: Diversification of product is a GOOD idea. The more things that you can get to earn you money, the better. Don't put all you eggs in one basket, no matter how profitable that one basket is.



Sorry, but NO.
You can't be this clueless. :smt005

Dan and the Gang work for TIME WARNER.
TIME WARNER is rich, not Dan and the Gang.

Dan and the Gang are perpetually scrambling to sell a pathetic 100,000+ copies of $3-4 pamphlets monthly (MUCH LESS for most series), in an insular, dwindling industry propped up by aging fanboys with few younger readers coming in to replace them. (And that's AFTER an overhyped, mass-marketed reboot designed to attract new readers and boost those sales numbers stratospherically. :roll:) So many of their books keep selling so low that they have to cancel said books in WAVES. They WISH they could get rich making books like Sword of Sorcery only to see them crash and burn after a pitiful 8 issues.

Luckily, Time Warner owns prominent movie/TV studio Warner Bros., and prominent cable networks like HBO and Cinemax. Luckily, Time Warner doesn't rely on the piddly 100,000+ in sales at BEST that Dan and the Gang can muster in order to stay rich, because they'd be in BIG trouble if they did.

Again, you talk like you know but you don't.

Why doesn't DC sell all Batman all the time? What's to say they don't? They sell plenty of Batman because it's their biggest property and within that property they diversify (isn't there black Batman now?). However, if they were to cut their line down to just Batman, they would probably manage to cut out about 90% of their workforce. That would save them a ton of money, and they are already heading in that direction.

Face it, Batman reaches the target market moreso than any other hero because he's the one that connects with audiences more than anyone else. We could say similar things for Hal Jordan, the current GL. However, if DC were to replace Hal Jordan, the white male, with an Arabic girl, they run the risk of losing the fans who connected with Hal Jordan. Perhaps maybe they'd enjoy the story as a novelty but eventually that novelty would wear off. With the wearing-off novelty, they would eventually have to revert back to the status quo to regain the readership.

It's common fucking marketing sense. When you alter a product, you risk losing people. It happens. Why alter something, especially with such delicate numbers as comic books have, if you risk losing sales?

You can't deny that even if your black ass changed Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner to some Arabic GL you would lose readers.

So why sell minorities? Because you keep your critics happy, you keep your fanbase diversified and you don't alienate those few non-majority fans who do enjoy the minority-based characters. If you take a financial L, then you take a financial L and eventually you shut the brand down (in this case, the series). If you lose significant money on any kind of venture, you shouldn't keep it going.

You take a risk based on what you might be able to pull in but you also shut it down quickly. Sales-wise, an Arab Green Lantern won't last because people want their Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner. If John Stewart was really THAT great of a character, then he would still be Green Lantern. And I'm the guy who went and bought a Green Lantern t-shirt in high school because I liked the black Green Lantern in the Justice League cartoon.

And DC comics has to be profitable in some way to Time Warner. In a world where we're seeing print publication die in record numbers, for a print publication company producing $4 pamphlets on a monthly basis, there has to be some profitability. Even if they company just strip-mines the IPs for other ventures, they still have to pull in some sort of money. While I have been scouring the net for all kinds of sales figures and financial statements (that I can't find), you have been sitting there basing claims on what you perceive is a dying industry.

If it was such a revenue-losing business, it would have been cut or phased out of the operation by now. Yet, DC Entertainment continues to publish comics. As it goes, DC Entertainment falls under the Film & TV Entertainment branch of Time Warner, so it's included partially to transition IPs into other areas of Film and TV but also to make some money. If it were just DC's sales getting DC by, obviously the company would collapse, but they also rely on IP transition and other outlets to make money. Still, they continue to publish there must be some merit somewhere in publishing.

Piddly shit like Sword of Sorcery is put to market because it's a great way to test and see if there is a market for those types of IPs. They test the waters for other markets. Batman comic selling very well, let's launch a Batman movie. Batman movie selling well, Green Lantern comic selling well, let's launch a Green Lantern movie. Etc. Even so, putting out some sort of fantasy title might do them well considering how well some fantasy IPs are doing on the market as well.

You seem to want to pigeonhole my thinking to fit your agenda. Then you make outrageous claims like I have no proof or I'm clueless. If you weren't so adamant in proving that Dan & the Gang were wrong, maybe you'd have something to "think about".

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Draco x » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:40 pm

Keb wrote:Again, you talk like you know but you don't.

Why doesn't DC sell all Batman all the time? What's to say they don't? They sell plenty of Batman because it's their biggest property and within that property they diversify (isn't there black Batman now?). However, if they were to cut their line down to just Batman, they would probably manage to cut out about 90% of their workforce. That would save them a ton of money, and they are already heading in that direction.

Face it, Batman reaches the target market moreso than any other hero because he's the one that connects with audiences more than anyone else. We could say similar things for Hal Jordan, the current GL. However, if DC were to replace Hal Jordan, the white male, with an Arabic girl, they run the risk of losing the fans who connected with Hal Jordan. Perhaps maybe they'd enjoy the story as a novelty but eventually that novelty would wear off. With the wearing-off novelty, they would eventually have to revert back to the status quo to regain the readership.

It's common fucking marketing sense. When you alter a product, you risk losing people. It happens. Why alter something, especially with such delicate numbers as comic books have, if you risk losing sales?

You can't deny that even if your black ass changed Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner to some Arabic GL you would lose readers.

So why sell minorities? Because you keep your critics happy, you keep your fanbase diversified and you don't alienate those few non-majority fans who do enjoy the minority-based characters. If you take a financial L, then you take a financial L and eventually you shut the brand down (in this case, the series). If you lose significant money on any kind of venture, you shouldn't keep it going.

You take a risk based on what you might be able to pull in but you also shut it down quickly. Sales-wise, an Arab Green Lantern won't last because people want their Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner. If John Stewart was really THAT great of a character, then he would still be Green Lantern. And I'm the guy who went and bought a Green Lantern t-shirt in high school because I liked the black Green Lantern in the Justice League cartoon.

And DC comics has to be profitable in some way to Time Warner. In a world where we're seeing print publication die in record numbers, for a print publication company producing $4 pamphlets on a monthly basis, there has to be some profitability. Even if they company just strip-mines the IPs for other ventures, they still have to pull in some sort of money. While I have been scouring the net for all kinds of sales figures and financial statements (that I can't find), you have been sitting there basing claims on what you perceive is a dying industry.

If it was such a revenue-losing business, it would have been cut or phased out of the operation by now. Yet, DC Entertainment continues to publish comics. As it goes, DC Entertainment falls under the Film & TV Entertainment branch of Time Warner, so it's included partially to transition IPs into other areas of Film and TV but also to make some money. If it were just DC's sales getting DC by, obviously the company would collapse, but they also rely on IP transition and other outlets to make money. Still, they continue to publish there must be some merit somewhere in publishing.

Piddly shit like Sword of Sorcery is put to market because it's a great way to test and see if there is a market for those types of IPs. They test the waters for other markets. Batman comic selling very well, let's launch a Batman movie. Batman movie selling well, Green Lantern comic selling well, let's launch a Green Lantern movie. Etc. Even so, putting out some sort of fantasy title might do them well considering how well some fantasy IPs are doing on the market as well.

You seem to want to pigeonhole my thinking to fit your agenda. Then you make outrageous claims like I have no proof or I'm clueless. If you weren't so adamant in proving that Dan & the Gang were wrong, maybe you'd have something to "think about".


-No offense but a lot of your posts here come off as a blatant assumption about female Arabic characters as instant epic fail or assuming that business decisions are the main reasons this won't happen. Also the thing with Hal is that Hal is the most known GL and whoever they were to replace him with-albeit temporarily-is going to rub the Hal fans the wrong way. Heck you will remember how unhappy some of the Hal fans were with the Emerald Twilight fiasco when Kyle was brought in as his replacement. We get the point that you're not going to please everyone so it's damned if you do or damned if you don't. Also, you do realize how universally panned the GL movie was by the way and the likelihood of another one being made is not likely anytime soon.
-As for DC still being a valuable asset to Warner is based very little on Didio's influence as I am pretty sure DC was doing fine before he was brought on board. Plus the fact that they hired Harras is going to hurt them big time business-wise.

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Keb » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:45 pm

draco x wrote:
Again that's probably what people would have said about Kevin Keller or Batwoman getting their own series and lo and behold we were proven wrong. And what does personal relationships have to do with your reasoning by chance?

Because through my relationships with Arab and Muslim girls, mostly friendships, I have discussed with them (sometimes at length) who they are and how they are perceived by others. For example, earlier in the thread you stated something along the lines of how oppressed Arabic women are. However, what you failed to understand is that you bring your Western POV to view their lifestyle so you see them as oppressed. There are a number of girls I've met who come from Arabic or Muslim cultures, wear a niqab or hijab and do not feel that in any way they are oppressed by their culture. Granted, there are some that do as well and there are also some that liberate themselves with their actions, but because Western civilization sees them as "oppressed" by patriarchal regimes, they are shuffled into this category.

It's like I said, read about the recent controversy between Femen (and their topless jihad day) and Muslim women who don't feel that way. When cultural groups try to speak for a group of people they aren't part of, the results are usually disastrous.

For all of the white people I've met who despise arranged marriages and think they impinge on an individual's freedom to love, they don't realize what the arranged marriage actually symbolizes, how it works and why people are still doing them.

With an Arabic female Green Lantern, there would be a lot of research involved in bringing the character to market. They'd have to make sure she doesn't offend the cultural group she represents while also maintaining a relationship to the target audience of superhero comics. It's going to walk a fine line between success and failure in both critical and commercial aspects. Look at how wishy-washy Marvel has been with Dust. And she is an extremely minor character in a very large franchise. They have the convenience of writing her out or forgetting her without pissing people off. It's a lot harder to do with a Green Lantern, especially the main Green Lantern.

As I said, it's not a good idea to bring to the market. It will just end in tears. Herald's most likely. :P

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Keb » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:47 pm

draco x wrote:
-No offense but a lot of your posts here come off as a blatant assumption about female Arabic characters as instant epic fail or assuming that business decisions are the main reasons this won't happen. Also the thing with Hal is that Hal is the most known GL and whoever they were to replace him with-albeit temporarily-is going to rub the Hal fans the wrong way. Heck you will remember how unhappy some of the Hal fans were with the Emerald Twilight fiasco when Kyle was brought in as his replacement. We get the point that you're not going to please everyone so it's damned if you do or damned if you don't. Also, you do realize how universally panned the GL movie was by the way and the likelihood of another one being made is not likely anytime soon.
-As for DC still being a valuable asset to Warner is based very little on Didio's influence as I am pretty sure DC was doing fine before he was brought on board. Plus the fact that they hired Harras is going to hurt them big time business-wise.

It will be. If Herald, who apparently has some ideas on how to do Arabic female characters "right" has no clue the difference between a niqab and a burqa, what makes you think Dan & the Gang will?

Herald > Dan & the Gang, amirite?

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Draco x » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:01 pm

Keb wrote:It will be. If Herald, who apparently has some ideas on how to do Arabic female characters "right" has no clue the difference between a niqab and a burqa, what makes you think Dan & the Gang will?


Herald > Dan & the Gang, amirite?



We do agree here on the Didio thing as I have no faith that Didio-and Bob Harras as well-won't fuck this up. Should they boot them from DC and replace them with people who aren't idiots then we can see.

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Draco x » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:04 pm

Keb wrote:Because through my relationships with Arab and Muslim girls, mostly friendships, I have discussed with them (sometimes at length) who they are and how they are perceived by others. For example, earlier in the thread you stated something along the lines of how oppressed Arabic women are. However, what you failed to understand is that you bring your Western POV to view their lifestyle so you see them as oppressed. There are a number of girls I've met who come from Arabic or Muslim cultures, wear a niqab or hijab and do not feel that in any way they are oppressed by their culture. Granted, there are some that do as well and there are also some that liberate themselves with their actions, but because Western civilization sees them as "oppressed" by patriarchal regimes, they are shuffled into this category.

It's like I said, read about the recent controversy between Femen (and their topless jihad day) and Muslim women who don't feel that way. When cultural groups try to speak for a group of people they aren't part of, the results are usually disastrous.

For all of the white people I've met who despise arranged marriages and think they impinge on an individual's freedom to love, they don't realize what the arranged marriage actually symbolizes, how it works and why people are still doing them.

With an Arabic female Green Lantern, there would be a lot of research involved in bringing the character to market. They'd have to make sure she doesn't offend the cultural group she represents while also maintaining a relationship to the target audience of superhero comics. It's going to walk a fine line between success and failure in both critical and commercial aspects. Look at how wishy-washy Marvel has been with Dust. And she is an extremely minor character in a very large franchise. They have the convenience of writing her out or forgetting her without pissing people off. It's a lot harder to do with a Green Lantern, especially the main Green Lantern.

As I said, it's not a good idea to bring to the market. It will just end in tears. Herald's most likely. :P


In the hands of the Didiocracy, sadly I do agree that this dynamic will most likely bomb-However in the hands of competent editors and good writers then I will disagree here.

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Keb » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:14 pm

I think one of the keys for the idea to make it to print would be to have a pitch from the writer willing to take the project on over having the pitch to change come from editorial.

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Herald » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:45 pm

Keb wrote:Again, you talk like you know but you don't.

Why doesn't DC sell all Batman all the time? What's to say they don't?


All the books they publish that don't feature Batman say they don't, which outnumber those that do.

Clearly, YOU are the one who doesn't know what's going on. :roll:

They sell plenty of Batman because it's their biggest property and within that property they diversify (isn't there black Batman now?).


"Black Batman" isn't Batman; it's BatWING.
That's why it doesn't sell like Batman does.

However, if they were to cut their line down to just Batman, they would probably manage to cut out about 90% of their workforce. That would save them a ton of money, and they are already heading in that direction.


They are NOT heading in that direction.
They will NEVER sell Batman comics alone.

YOU are the one who doesn't know what's going on. :roll:

Face it, Batman reaches the target market moreso than any other hero because he's the one that connects with audiences more than anyone else. We could say similar things for Hal Jordan, the current GL. However, if DC were to replace Hal Jordan, the white male, with an Arabic girl, they run the risk of losing the fans who connected with Hal Jordan. Perhaps maybe they'd enjoy the story as a novelty but eventually that novelty would wear off. With the wearing-off novelty, they would eventually have to revert back to the status quo to regain the readership.


Clearly, they were willing to take that risk when they substituted BAZ, the ARABIC MALE, for Hal.

YOU are the one who doesn't know what's going on. :roll:

It's common fucking marketing sense. When you alter a product, you risk losing people. It happens. Why alter something, especially with such delicate numbers as comic books have, if you risk losing sales?


So if they -- oh, I don't know -- created a MAJOR REBOOT that retconned almost every character's history and rendered them nigh unrecognizable, they would risk losing people?! Well, good thing they would NEVER, EVER do such a thing in the face of your "common fucking marketing sense", then!!

*facepalm*

YOU are the one who doesn't know what's going on. :roll:

You can't deny that even if your black ass changed Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner to some Arabic GL you would lose readers.


You mean, like they ALREADY DID with BAZ.

YOU are the one who doesn't know what's going on. :roll:

So why sell minorities? Because you keep your critics happy, you keep your fanbase diversified and you don't alienate those few non-majority fans who do enjoy the minority-based characters. If you take a financial L, then you take a financial L and eventually you shut the brand down (in this case, the series). If you lose significant money on any kind of venture, you shouldn't keep it going.

You take a risk based on what you might be able to pull in but you also shut it down quickly. Sales-wise, an Arab Green Lantern won't last because people want their Hal Jordan or Kyle Rayner.


It sure seems to be lasting when they're doing it RIGHT NOW. :roll:

YOU are the one who doesn't know what's going on. :roll:

If John Stewart was really THAT great of a character, then he would still be Green Lantern.


Another demonstration that you just aren't paying attention to what's happening around you. :roll:

It doesn't matter how great a certain character is nowadays. If it conflicts with what Dan and the Gang's inner Silver Age fanboy wants, they get rid of it post-haste.

That's what happened to Cass Cain as Batgirl; because she wasn't Barbara Gordon, they cancelled her book and dragged her character through the mud. That's what happened to Wally West; because he wasn't Barry Allen, Wally gets sidelined while Geoff's Barry Sue emerges as the guy whose leg everyone suddenly wants to hump, except the Straw Critic, his grandson Bart. It's highly interesting that a continuity reboot created by Barry Allen would deliberately leave out his beloved nephew and former sidekick...

And DC comics has to be profitable in some way to Time Warner. In a world where we're seeing print publication die in record numbers, for a print publication company producing $4 pamphlets on a monthly basis, there has to be some profitability. Even if they company just strip-mines the IPs for other ventures, they still have to pull in some sort of money.


That is the main reason Time Warner humors DC; it's an IP farm. I'm glad you picked up on THAT much, at least. As many a person has said, half the time, Warners forgets that DC exists.

While I have been scouring the net for all kinds of sales figures and financial statements (that I can't find)


Well, I'm glad you understand the importance of proof. Try explaining it to Dairy, if you can...

you have been sitting there basing claims on what you perceive is a dying industry.


"Perceive", nothing. You ARE aware that comics once used to sell MILLIONS of copies a month, right?? When a series published in the '70s was selling in this 100,000+ range that we consider king now, it was CANCELLED, IMMEDIATELY. They've had to severely lower the bars for great sales and cancellation level from that time to today. That is the mark of a dying industry.

You yourself mentioned that this is "a world where we're seeing print publication die in record numbers". What, did you forget THAT fast?? :roll:

If it was such a revenue-losing business, it would have been cut or phased out of the operation by now. Yet, DC Entertainment continues to publish comics.


Many people, including me, surmise that the hyped-up reboot was a Hail Mary to keep DC publishing comics. I suggest you don't count out the possibility of DC ceasing publication of comics just yet...

As it goes, DC Entertainment falls under the Film & TV Entertainment branch of Time Warner, so it's included partially to transition IPs into other areas of Film and TV but also to make some money. If it were just DC's sales getting DC by, obviously the company would collapse, but they also rely on IP transition and other outlets to make money. Still, they continue to publish there must be some merit somewhere in publishing.


Yeah, the creation of EVEN MORE IP to exploit.

Piddly shit like Sword of Sorcery is put to market because it's a great way to test and see if there is a market for those types of IPs. They test the waters for other markets. Batman comic selling very well, let's launch a Batman movie. Batman movie selling well, Green Lantern comic selling well, let's launch a Green Lantern movie. Etc. Even so, putting out some sort of fantasy title might do them well considering how well some fantasy IPs are doing on the market as well.


They ought to expand the Amethyst cartoon into a 30-minute series.

You seem to want to pigeonhole my thinking to fit your agenda.


No, you pigeonhole plenty all by yourself. All I do is point it out. :smt102

Then you make outrageous claims like I have no proof or I'm clueless.


Uh, you just mentioned in THIS POST that you couldn't find proof of those sales figures.

And you're so clueless that you blather on about how foolish DC would be to replace Hal with anyone, when they've already done so with Baz.

Like I said, YOU do this stuff to YOURSELF. All I do is point it out. :smt102

If you weren't so adamant in proving that Dan & the Gang were wrong, maybe you'd have something to "think about".


:smt005 :smt005 :smt005

Like you, Dan and the Gang demonstrate just how horribly wrong they are all by themselves! And all I do is point it out... AND laugh like Muttley!

Image

Go check out the news from a few weeks ago to find out how REPEATEDLY wrong Dan and the Gang can get in ONE DAY!

post10160786.html

the-news-stand/shocker-andy-diggle-off-action-comics-t92930.html

the-news-stand/shocker-tony-daniel-shocked-learn-the-new-writer-action-comics-t92932.html

the-news-stand/shocker-joshua-hale-fialkov-latest-creator-walk-off-books-t92937.html

It's STILL hilarious!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Herald » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:58 pm

dairydead wrote:These are not wild claims...


Blah, blah, blah. Much ado about nothing, since you have repeatedly admitted you have no proof to show me.

When you FINALLY understand the concept of proving your claims, let me know. In the meantime, don't even bother presenting me with another meaningless wall of text about you not having proof.

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Herald » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:24 pm

Keb wrote:With an Arabic female Green Lantern, there would be a lot of research involved in bringing the character to market.


And Heaven forbid ANYone do research, "amirite"??

They've created East Asian females, Indian females (BOTH types of "Indian", thank you), African females (note the lack of "-American" after "African"), etc., etc. So they can create Arabic females, as well. Indeed, as I've noted, they ALREADY HAVE.

They'd have to make sure she doesn't offend the cultural group she represents while also maintaining a relationship to the target audience of superhero comics. It's going to walk a fine line between success and failure in both critical and commercial aspects.


Just as all the black, East Asian, Indian (BOTH types), etc. characters -- male AND female -- have done before. It CAN be done, despite your crippling inability to conceive of it. :roll:

Look at how wishy-washy Marvel has been with Dust. And she is an extremely minor character in a very large franchise. They have the convenience of writing her out or forgetting her without pissing people off. It's a lot harder to do with a Green Lantern, especially the main Green Lantern.


AGAIN: They sure don't have a problem doing so with BAZ, who is ARABIC...

As I said, it's not a good idea to bring to the market. It will just end in tears. Herald's most likely. :P


Hate to disappoint you -- well, not really! :P -- but there would be no tears on my part, buddy. I'm well used to Dan and the Gang's utter failure to use their characters well, no matter what race they are.

You know, it's quite interesting to see how fiercely you oppose this concept. It's apparent that there are much deeper motives at work than this idiotic "marketing" excuse that I've repeatedly shot into Swiss cheese...

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby S.F. Jude Terror » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:46 pm

:lol:
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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Thunderstorm » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:34 pm

Only at the Outhouse can a Green Lantern thread devolve into a flame war over ladies fashion.

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby dairydead » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:57 pm

Herald wrote:
Blah, blah, blah. Much ado about nothing, since you have repeatedly admitted you have no proof to show me.

When you FINALLY understand the concept of proving your claims, let me know. In the meantime, don't even bother presenting me with another meaningless wall of text about you not having proof.


What i posted to you WAS proof. These are actual facts about Muslim women. You DO realize that photos arent the only thing that can define a side in an argument, right? :smt017
The Firelord to Hawk's Galactus

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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Herald » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:01 pm

dairydead wrote:
What i posted to you WAS proof. These are actual facts about Muslim women. You DO realize that photos arent the only thing that can define a side in an argument, right? :smt017


Like I've told you OVER and OVER: ANYbody can make CLAIMS about ANYthing, as you are doing. Show me actual pictures that conclusively demonstrate your claims.

The fact of the matter is, you CAN'T prove your claims.
And you KNOW it.

Grayson
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Re: What If The New Green Lantern Was Female

Postby Grayson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:01 pm

dairydead wrote:You DO realize that photos arent the only thing that can define a side in an argument, right? :smt017


:shock: WHAT?!?!
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