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[Amoebas]

Yeah this is the performance poster in you coming out again.

Listen well, because you can't have it both ways. Either Utopia is a sovereign nation so they don't have the rights of the United States, so the Avengers are just invading a dangerous enemy near their border or the X-Men have the rights of America in which they disobeying an order from their government. Either way, the Avengers have the law behind them.

Agreed - and if you look closely at those pages with Cap & Cyke, Cap is standing in water and not on Utopian soil. Further proof he was respecting the Cyke and the X-Men whereas Cyke was basically all about disrespect.

[Ntikrst]

You don't think Thor would hand in his brother?

I want you to tell me that you'd hand over your mother, despite having the power to deal with the situation yourself.

Yeah this is the performance poster in you coming out again.

Is everyone who disagrees with you reduced to a faceless stereotype? Is that how you keep your self-esteem intact?

Either Utopia is a sovereign nation so they don't have the rights of the United States, so the Avengers are just invading a dangerous enemy near their border or the X-Men have the rights of America in which they disobeying an order from their government. Either way, the Avengers have the law behind them.

The Laws of the United States don't supersede other sovereign nations, that's just might makes right. Problem is, Utopia is just as mighty so why should they allow themselves to be bullied?

[Ntikrst]

Agreed - and if you look closely at those pages with Cap & Cyke, Cap is standing in water and not on Utopian soil. Further proof he was respecting the Cyke and the X-Men whereas Cyke was basically all about disrespect.

If Cap was al about respect, he would have left when he was told to.

Besides, as Namor pointed out Cap's presence in an inch of water on the island's shore meant that things were already "ramped up".

[ReturnoftheMack]

I want you to tell me that you'd hand over your mother, despite having the power to deal with the situation yourself.

I would probably hand my mother over and then get a good lawyer. Why the fuck would I start a war with the Avengers?

Also, is Hope Cyclops' mother? How fucked up is X-Men continuity?

Is everyone who disagrees with you reduced to a faceless stereotype? Is that how you keep your self-esteem intact?

If the shoe fits...

The Laws of the United States don't supersede other sovereign nations, that's just might makes right. Problem is, Utopia is just as mighty so why should they allowed themselves to be bullied?

Ok, so Utopia is a sovereign nation. Then with what right does Cyclops come onto American soil and attack the Avengers for Scarlet Witch?

Might doesn't make right when you are wrong.

[Amoebas]

The person who woke up was not the person who went to sleep. When Wolverine1 woke up, Wolverine2 was replaced. To say otherwise doesn't make any sense.

He wasn't replaced - he woke up. Wolverine 1 & 2 shared the same memories.

How about this - where was Wolverine 1 when Wolverine 2 was around? Was he dead?

For your theory to work, Wanda had to kill the entire Marvel Universe, create a whole new universe where damn near all of history lines up except for the last few years, then create characters that are merged between the two, then kill a whole universe again and then create the Marvel Universe perfectly from scratch.

To say otherwise (like she 'altered reality' rather than 'she killed and created whole universes - twice'), does make sense.

As for your second point, if I have a child am I then allowed to murder that child? Does it balance out because I created it? Of course not. It's good to create life, yes but not if you have to kill an entire universe to do it.

My point was that Wanda can't create life - ergo, your theory falls down.

[ReturnoftheMack]

Amoebus is right. The only people that Wanda "killed" are characters that never existed like Peter and Gwen's kids.

Our Peter and HoM Peter are the same person.

[Amoebas]

If Cap was al about respect, he would have left when he was told to.

Besides, as Namor pointed out Cap's presence in an inch of water on the island's shore meant that things were already "ramped up".

Namor's full of bullshit. You act like anytime Cap shows up anywhere - it's 'ramped up'. It's not. He's Captain America. If there's a chance things can be taken care without fighting, Cap's the guy you want.

[e_galston]

So yeah, everyone on this site for the most part knows how big of an X-Men/Mutant fan, and even i can see that they are wrong.

[PDH]

He wasn't replaced - he woke up. Wolverine 1 & 2 shared the same memories.

How about this - where was Wolverine 1 when Wolverine 2 was around? Was he dead?

Wolverine 1 being the 616 Wolverine? He was gone. Gone in the way that a movie on an old VHS tape is gone if you tape over it with a different movie.

The physical universe didn't go anywhere, it just got warped. I'm not denying that. Likewise, the VHS tape didn't go anywhere.

What I'm saying is that if you draw a picture of a duck on a blackboard and then erase it and draw a picture of a cat, the duck is gone. If you erase it again and draw a picture of a duck, the cat is gone. It's the same blackboard but the blackboard is not what we're interested in. What we're interested in is the picture.

Identity is the movie, not the tape. The duck, not the blackboard. The story, not the book. The substrate is irrelevant.

I'm mixing metaphors as well as I can here!

For your theory to work, Wanda had to kill the entire Marvel Universe, create a whole new universe where damn near all of history lines up except for the last few years, then create characters that are merged between the two, then kill a whole universe again and then create the Marvel Universe perfectly from scratch.

No, she doesn't need to have done that. She just needs to change this world, as described above. It's literally equivalent either way in terms of preserving identity because identity is in the way that things are configured, not in the things themselves.

My point was that Wanda can't create life - ergo, your theory falls down.

That was your first point and it hinges on a faulty concept of life and identity.

The quoted comments were addressed to your second point. You conceded my thesis for the sake of argument and then said that even if what I was saying was true - that people created in a reality warp are still people - then it was OK for Wanda to kill them because she created them in the first place.

But creating life does not entitle you to terminate that life whenever you wish. It's not morally OK for parents to kill their children just because they brought them into the world.

[PDH]

Amoebus is right. The only people that Wanda "killed" are characters that never existed like Peter and Gwen's kids.

Our Peter and HoM Peter are the same person.

What do you mean 'never existed'? They were right there, I saw them. Did they not have feelings and desires and dreams? If you pricked them would they not bleed? Why are people created in a reality warp any less important than anyone else?

Suppose in the regular 616, Jim is an anti-mutant bigot. He joined the friends of humanity, bought all of Reverend Stryker's audiobooks and would think that Cap is in the right on AvX.

In the HoM, however, he's a mutant called the Douchebag with the power to cleanse vaginas telepathically who is part of some mutant elite and would certainly support Cyclops in AvX

The Douchebag has thirty-six years of totally separate subjective memories, a completely original personality and is friends with a group of people whom Jim has never met. If he ever did meet Jim he'd kill him on sight and vice-versa. These are two completely different people in every sense that matters. To change the Douchebag into Jim is to kill the Douchebag.

The writer of the story can say that one of them isn't real and doesn't matter but only if he's completely confused about identity.

To deny this is to say that you could change every word of a story to a different word and still call it the same story just because it was written in the same physical book. It's nonsense.

[ReturnoftheMack]

What do you mean 'never existed'? They were right there, I saw them. Did they not have feelings and desires and dreams? If you pricked them would they not bleed? Why are people created in a reality warp any less important than anyone else?

Suppose in the regular 616, Jim is an anti-mutant bigot. He joined the friends of humanity, bought all of Reverend Stryker's audiobooks and would think that Cap is in the right on AvX.

In the HoM, however, he's a mutant called the Douchebag with the power to cleanse vaginas telepathically who is part of some mutant elite and would certainly support Cyclops in AvX

The Douchebag has thirty-six years of totally separate subjective memories, a completely original personality and is friends with a group of people whom Jim has never met. If he ever did meet Jim he'd kill him on sight and vice-versa. These are two completely different people in every sense that matters. To change the Douchebag into Jim is to kill the Douchebag.

The writer of the story can say that one of them isn't real and doesn't matter but only if he's completely confused about identity.

To deny this is to say that you could change every word of a story to a different word and still call it the same story just because it was written in the same physical book. It's nonsense.

I meant that they didn't exist before HoM. Gwen and Peter's kids only existed in HoM, so you can make an argument that Wanda killed them.

HoM Peter Parker wasn't killed though. The reason is that he "remembered" his true self. The new reality changed around Peter Parker. It's really no different that BND.

[PDH]

I meant that they didn't exist before HoM. Gwen and Peter's kids only existed in HoM, so you can make an argument that Wanda killed them.

HoM Peter Parker wasn't killed though. The reason is that he "remembered" his true self. The new reality changed around Peter Parker. It's really no different that BND.

But the people in the HoM are totally different from the people in the 616. Those people are gone now.

Same with BND, in at least some cases.

[BubbaKanoosh]

So yeah, everyone on this site for the most part knows how big of an X-Men/Mutant fan, and even i can see that they are wrong.

But they aren't.

The Avengers plan is short sighted anyways.

[Chris]

Look.. at any rate, HoM is still just one world.

The Phoenix has destroyed countless worlds and galaxies.

Even if you accept that Wanda did kill the HoM world.. it still doesn't compare.

[Chris]

But they aren't.

The Avengers plan is short sighted anyways.

As opposed to the X-Men's plan, which is basically.. "Uh.. we hope Hope can control it. Fingers crossed guys!"