The Outhouse - The Greatest Comic Book Forum

[ElijahSnowFan]

For the most part agree with this.However,there was that moment in Blackest Night when,while in the superhero graveyard Barry asked Hal who else they had lost and Hal's ring projected images of all their fallen friends and allies,and when Barry saw the images of Ralp and Sue Debny he had to sat down(or did he fall on his knees?can't remember which) because the immense grief he felt at the moment.
It made me remember why the other characters,the fans and myself missed Barry so much and was for that moment,really glad he was back.Sadly ever since his return there had not been(as far as I know) any other moment like that.

What you just described here is exactly what is missing from DC Comics, all too often:

Heroes showing emotions other than weakness or anger.

All too often, DC either has heroes who are "hotheads" or have feet of clay. Or, in Bruce Wayne's case, the suppression of emotion is viewed as some kind of strength.

It isn't. It's actually a horrible flaw.

Heroism is something that DC fails to show so often, you have to wonder if they even understand it. Heroism isn't Hal Jordan being a douche so huge that some can barely stand to read books with him in it. Heroism is Hal Jordan being able to overcome great fear, look around him and see that Sinestro is a fascist and Black Hand is a psychopathic nihilist, and resolve himself to standing against them, with allies or without, so those who are defenseless are kept safe.

That doesn't mean the heroes have to be perfect. Yes, they can lose a fight, be outmaneuvered. But what makes the medium work is that, at the end of the day, Batman IS smarter than the Joker and Riddler and Two-Face and Hush. Batman might lose a battle, but he doesn't quit, and because of that resolve, he wins the war. And more often than not, his skills are such that his victories aren't miracles; they are the result of training and discipline and skill and determination and courage.

When I look at DC now, Hal Jordan...they are characters. They fight crime and villains. But far too often, they don't remind anyone of heroes. HEROES.

Which, in my case, means I lose the suspension of belief that you have to have to read a comic book in the first place, and then I start asking questions like, "Um, if Batman's so smart, why is Joker killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again, and the people of Gotham City are still saying, 'Wow, everyone! Let's put Joker back in Arkham Asylum again so he can figure out his next plan to kill dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again! Maybe it won't be this time...guess we'll find out!"

[Amoebas]

Well, for the most part DC's heroes are more heroic than Marvels (who've taken on way too many villain aspect over the last few years).

[Dragavon]

Well, for the most part DC's heroes are more heroic than Marvels (who've taken on way too many villain aspect over the last few years).

Bullshit. Marvel heroes are the ones who fall down, get up and try to do better. That's what being hero is, not just fighting the same fight for the 1000th time.

[Cat-Scratch]

Bullshit. Marvel heroes are the ones who fall down, get up and try to do better. That's what being hero is, not just fighting the same fight for the 1000th time.

You forget that they die almost every other month and then get brought back.

Also - the-news-stand/avengers-men-and-the-slow-and-painful-death-the-marvel-universe-spoilers-t86513.html

[Dragavon]

You forget that they die almost every other month and then get brought back.

Also - the-news-stand/avengers-men-and-the-slow-and-painful-death-the-marvel-universe-spoilers-t86513.html

Also bullshit. I'm sure if an honest count was made about the number of times Marvel heroes died and DC heroes died, DC would be equal if not greater.

Superman, Batman, Hal, Barry, Aquaman and virtually every character in DC who has his own title has come back from the dead at least once.

[Cat-Scratch]

Also bullshit. I'm sure if an honest count was made about the number of times Marvel heroes died and DC heroes died, DC would be equal if not greater.

Superman, Batman, Hal, Barry, Aquaman and virtually every character in DC who has his own title has come back from the dead at least once.

Hawkeye. How many times now?

Also, that link shows how some fans agree with Amoebas.

[draco x]

What you just described here is exactly what is missing from DC Comics, all too often:

Heroes showing emotions other than weakness or anger.

All too often, DC either has heroes who are "hotheads" or have feet of clay. Or, in Bruce Wayne's case, the suppression of emotion is viewed as some kind of strength.

It isn't. It's actually a horrible flaw.

Heroism is something that DC fails to show so often, you have to wonder if they even understand it. Heroism isn't Hal Jordan being a douche so huge that some can barely stand to read books with him in it. Heroism is Hal Jordan being able to overcome great fear, look around him and see that Sinestro is a fascist and Black Hand is a psychopathic nihilist, and resolve himself to standing against them, with allies or without, so those who are defenseless are kept safe.

That doesn't mean the heroes have to be perfect. Yes, they can lose a fight, be outmaneuvered. But what makes the medium work is that, at the end of the day, Batman IS smarter than the Joker and Riddler and Two-Face and Hush. Batman might lose a battle, but he doesn't quit, and because of that resolve, he wins the war. And more often than not, his skills are such that his victories aren't miracles; they are the result of training and discipline and skill and determination and courage.

When I look at DC now, Hal Jordan...they are characters. They fight crime and villains. But far too often, they don't remind anyone of heroes. HEROES.

Which, in my case, means I lose the suspension of belief that you have to have to read a comic book in the first place, and then I start asking questions like, "Um, if Batman's so smart, why is Joker killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again, and the people of Gotham City are still saying, 'Wow, everyone! Let's put Joker back in Arkham Asylum again so he can figure out his next plan to kill dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again! Maybe it won't be this time...guess we'll find out!"

Because if DC kills the Joker off, the bat franchise loses most of its appeal and DC can't afford to kill off one its most popular villain in fear of losing money and fans. Realistically though, the Joker would have been deep sixed long ago by Batman or some other character for all the evil he has done.

[Dragavon]

Hawkeye. How many times now?

Also, that link shows how some fans agree with Amoebas.

Did I say that Marvel heroes hadn't done that. No, I said DC does that with with it's characters more often.

If Amoebas had said Marvel characters were written out of character more than DC characters I would agree with that. But to say that Marvel characters aren't heroes compared to DC ones just reduces the claimant to a DC fanboy.

[chap22]

What you just described here is exactly what is missing from DC Comics, all too often:

Heroes showing emotions other than weakness or anger.

All too often, DC either has heroes who are "hotheads" or have feet of clay. Or, in Bruce Wayne's case, the suppression of emotion is viewed as some kind of strength.

It isn't. It's actually a horrible flaw.

Heroism is something that DC fails to show so often, you have to wonder if they even understand it. Heroism isn't Hal Jordan being a douche so huge that some can barely stand to read books with him in it. Heroism is Hal Jordan being able to overcome great fear, look around him and see that Sinestro is a fascist and Black Hand is a psychopathic nihilist, and resolve himself to standing against them, with allies or without, so those who are defenseless are kept safe.

That doesn't mean the heroes have to be perfect. Yes, they can lose a fight, be outmaneuvered. But what makes the medium work is that, at the end of the day, Batman IS smarter than the Joker and Riddler and Two-Face and Hush. Batman might lose a battle, but he doesn't quit, and because of that resolve, he wins the war. And more often than not, his skills are such that his victories aren't miracles; they are the result of training and discipline and skill and determination and courage.

When I look at DC now, Hal Jordan...they are characters. They fight crime and villains. But far too often, they don't remind anyone of heroes. HEROES.

Which, in my case, means I lose the suspension of belief that you have to have to read a comic book in the first place, and then I start asking questions like, "Um, if Batman's so smart, why is Joker killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again, and the people of Gotham City are still saying, 'Wow, everyone! Let's put Joker back in Arkham Asylum again so he can figure out his next plan to kill dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again! Maybe it won't be this time...guess we'll find out!"

Other than my general disagreement with your "Joker needs to be final solutioned" opinion, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter sir. This post is beautiful

[Amoebas]

Bullshit. Marvel heroes are the ones who fall down, get up and try to do better. That's what being hero is, not just fighting the same fight for the 1000th time.

If Amoebas had said Marvel characters were written out of character more than DC characters I would agree with that. But to say that Marvel characters aren't heroes compared to DC ones just reduces the claimant to a DC fanboy.

Let's look at what I said...

Well, for the most part DC's heroes are more heroic than Marvels (who've taken on way too many villain aspect over the last few years).

Over the last few years we have had...

Wanda, from out of the blue, goes insane and kills some of her fellow Avengers.
The X-Men want to kill Wanda at the start of House of M (and some Avengers don't disagree).
The Illuminutty work in the shadows
Civil War where Iron Man and Reed Richards were total pricks who manipulated other heroes and are outright responsible for killing Bill Foster.
Civil War for, well, everything else.
Hulk was always a menace but never a violent threat to civilization as a whole before World War Hulk.
The Black Widow has killed and kind of sadistically too.
Hawkeye, openly wants to kill Osborn.
Spider-Man makes a deal with the devil.
Wonder-Man (nothing else need be said).
At the start of AvX, Cap and his team were little more than bullies, pushing and provoking a fight.
Cyclops is the new Magneto and his blindly following muties are assholes for going along with him.
Wolverine may talk the talk, but anytime he pulls his claws to kill, he's not following the heroic nature the Marvel Universe was founded on.
How many innocent people did Namor just kill in Wakanda? Unless they pull a Yellow Bug out of him, he should be done.

And this is just some of the ones I know of. Those are same A list characters (many from the company's marquee 'events') with questionable virtues.

Are they written out of character for the most part - yes. But it's in print so it's real and confirms my post that imo, Marvel characters have acted less heroically these last few years than DC's have. If this makes me a DC fanboy in your eyes, so be it.

[Miracloman]

What you just described here is exactly what is missing from DC Comics, all too often:

Heroes showing emotions other than weakness or anger.

All too often, DC either has heroes who are "hotheads" or have feet of clay. Or, in Bruce Wayne's case, the suppression of emotion is viewed as some kind of strength.

It isn't. It's actually a horrible flaw.

Heroism is something that DC fails to show so often, you have to wonder if they even understand it. Heroism isn't Hal Jordan being a douche so huge that some can barely stand to read books with him in it. Heroism is Hal Jordan being able to overcome great fear, look around him and see that Sinestro is a fascist and Black Hand is a psychopathic nihilist, and resolve himself to standing against them, with allies or without, so those who are defenseless are kept safe.

That doesn't mean the heroes have to be perfect. Yes, they can lose a fight, be outmaneuvered. But what makes the medium work is that, at the end of the day, Batman IS smarter than the Joker and Riddler and Two-Face and Hush. Batman might lose a battle, but he doesn't quit, and because of that resolve, he wins the war. And more often than not, his skills are such that his victories aren't miracles; they are the result of training and discipline and skill and determination and courage.

When I look at DC now, Hal Jordan...they are characters. They fight crime and villains. But far too often, they don't remind anyone of heroes. HEROES.

Which, in my case, means I lose the suspension of belief that you have to have to read a comic book in the first place, and then I start asking questions like, "Um, if Batman's so smart, why is Joker killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again, and the people of Gotham City are still saying, 'Wow, everyone! Let's put Joker back in Arkham Asylum again so he can figure out his next plan to kill dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again! Maybe it won't be this time...guess we'll find out!"

Beautifully said.
Isn't it funny that this summer, the place to find those qualities in our comic heroes was in the movie theaters.The writers of the screenplays of both The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises seems to still remember what most of those who write those characters for a living had forgotten.

[Zechs]

What you just described here is exactly what is missing from DC Comics, all too often:

Heroes showing emotions other than weakness or anger.

All too often, DC either has heroes who are "hotheads" or have feet of clay. Or, in Bruce Wayne's case, the suppression of emotion is viewed as some kind of strength.

It isn't. It's actually a horrible flaw.

Heroism is something that DC fails to show so often, you have to wonder if they even understand it. Heroism isn't Hal Jordan being a douche so huge that some can barely stand to read books with him in it. Heroism is Hal Jordan being able to overcome great fear, look around him and see that Sinestro is a fascist and Black Hand is a psychopathic nihilist, and resolve himself to standing against them, with allies or without, so those who are defenseless are kept safe.

That doesn't mean the heroes have to be perfect. Yes, they can lose a fight, be outmaneuvered. But what makes the medium work is that, at the end of the day, Batman IS smarter than the Joker and Riddler and Two-Face and Hush. Batman might lose a battle, but he doesn't quit, and because of that resolve, he wins the war. And more often than not, his skills are such that his victories aren't miracles; they are the result of training and discipline and skill and determination and courage.

When I look at DC now, Hal Jordan...they are characters. They fight crime and villains. But far too often, they don't remind anyone of heroes. HEROES.

Which, in my case, means I lose the suspension of belief that you have to have to read a comic book in the first place, and then I start asking questions like, "Um, if Batman's so smart, why is Joker killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again, and the people of Gotham City are still saying, 'Wow, everyone! Let's put Joker back in Arkham Asylum again so he can figure out his next plan to kill dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again! Maybe it won't be this time...guess we'll find out!"

Well said. Very well said.

[draco x]

Let's look at what I said...

Over the last few years we have had...

Wanda, from out of the blue, goes insane and kills some of her fellow Avengers.
The X-Men want to kill Wanda at the start of House of M (and some Avengers don't disagree).
The Illuminutty work in the shadows
Civil War where Iron Man and Reed Richards were total pricks who manipulated other heroes and are outright responsible for killing Bill Foster.
Civil War for, well, everything else.
Hulk was always a menace but never a violent threat to civilization as a whole before World War Hulk.
The Black Widow has killed and kind of sadistically too.
Hawkeye, openly wants to kill Osborn.
Spider-Man makes a deal with the devil.
Wonder-Man (nothing else need be said).
At the start of AvX, Cap and his team were little more than bullies, pushing and provoking a fight.
Cyclops is the new Magneto and his blindly following muties are assholes for going along with him.
Wolverine may talk the talk, but anytime he pulls his claws to kill, he's not following the heroic nature the Marvel Universe was founded on.
How many innocent people did Namor just kill in Wakanda? Unless they pull a Yellow Bug out of him, he should be done.

And this is just some of the ones I know of. Those are same A list characters (many from the company's marquee 'events') with questionable virtues.

Are they written out of character for the most part - yes. But it's in print so it's real and confirms my post that imo, Marvel characters have acted less heroically these last few years than DC's have. If this makes me a DC fanboy in your eyes, so be it.

Nicely put. You forgot Matt Murdock turning into an evil ninja Kingpin during Shadowland though.

[alaska1125]

What you just described here is exactly what is missing from DC Comics, all too often:

Heroes showing emotions other than weakness or anger.

All too often, DC either has heroes who are "hotheads" or have feet of clay. Or, in Bruce Wayne's case, the suppression of emotion is viewed as some kind of strength.

It isn't. It's actually a horrible flaw.

Heroism is something that DC fails to show so often, you have to wonder if they even understand it. Heroism isn't Hal Jordan being a douche so huge that some can barely stand to read books with him in it. Heroism is Hal Jordan being able to overcome great fear, look around him and see that Sinestro is a fascist and Black Hand is a psychopathic nihilist, and resolve himself to standing against them, with allies or without, so those who are defenseless are kept safe.

That doesn't mean the heroes have to be perfect. Yes, they can lose a fight, be outmaneuvered. But what makes the medium work is that, at the end of the day, Batman IS smarter than the Joker and Riddler and Two-Face and Hush. Batman might lose a battle, but he doesn't quit, and because of that resolve, he wins the war. And more often than not, his skills are such that his victories aren't miracles; they are the result of training and discipline and skill and determination and courage.

When I look at DC now, Hal Jordan...they are characters. They fight crime and villains. But far too often, they don't remind anyone of heroes. HEROES.

Which, in my case, means I lose the suspension of belief that you have to have to read a comic book in the first place, and then I start asking questions like, "Um, if Batman's so smart, why is Joker killing dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again, and the people of Gotham City are still saying, 'Wow, everyone! Let's put Joker back in Arkham Asylum again so he can figure out his next plan to kill dozens/hundreds/thousands of people again! Maybe it won't be this time...guess we'll find out!"

This. But you've always laid it out like this, so no suprise on my part.

[alaska1125]

Beautifully said.
Isn't it funny that this summer, the place to find those qualities in our comic heroes was in the movie theaters.The writers of the screenplays of both The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises seems to still remember what most of those who write those characters for a living had forgotten.

I hadn't thought about it, but yes. Both movies were love letters to the characters and their fans, one a new chapter and the other a nice ending to a really great story.