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Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

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Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:45 pm

So, it's Thursday, and the thread titles has "Spoilers" in it, so I'm going to talk a little freely in this one. If you don't want to know what happened, STOP READING NOW!

You have been warned! Seriously!

So, yeah. Wow. Even though you could see it coming and Hickman wrote them into the box, with the obvious taking place at the end, it was still surreal seeing it.

They killed a world. The Illuminati killed a world.

Namor pulled the trigger, as he would. But all of their fingerprints are on it. Stephen Strange is just...wow. He's effed, now. And Black Bolt might've killed that speedster, straight up.

I spent the last day thinking about it. I don't know what I would've done, which, obviously, is what Hickman is asking the reader: What would you have done? Staring death in the face, the extinction of your world? Could you do what Namor did?

I...don't know. It's an interesting question. What are lives worth? What is your soul worth?

I don't know. It's interesting, though, because it made me think.
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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby IvCNuB4 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:50 pm

"Heroes" crossing the line. I miss the Silver Age.
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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:00 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:"Heroes" crossing the line. I miss the Silver Age.


I do, too -- not because I didn't read Watchmen or DKR back in the 80s, or Frank Miller's Daredevil, but because those were stories...I don't know.

I don't quite know how to describe what I thought about this issue. Hickman tried to show contrast, and genuine remorse/"heroism" by having all of the characters who you thought wouldn't pull the trigger refuse to do so, but still...it's not that simple. They all knew what was going down. They only wanted someone else to physically do it.

It's a subtle deconstruction of heroism, in the regard that really, when you distill it to its base level, what right do any of them have to do what they do?

I just have never been good at answering that question, because, as you said, I believe in a simpler comics world, though I can read this type of story without problems.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

"Superman flies and is really strong...what the fuck else do you need to know?!" -- Hitler, expressing his displeasure about DC rebooting and complaints about continuity

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby ElijahSnowFan » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:03 pm

john lewis hawk wrote:I love it.


HA! I should've been more clear: I love this storyline, Hickman's Avengers work.

It's just tough reading it, because he has really put them through the wringer.
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*Sniff, sniff* "Damn it, Diana...If I'd known they would trade us in for a JT Krul-written Captain Atom and "The Savage Hawkman," I'd have let Superboy-Prime destroy all reality."

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby john lewis hawk » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:09 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:
HA! I should've been more clear: I love this storyline, Hickman's Avengers work.

It's just tough reading it, because he has really put them through the wringer.

As he should.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Johnny Smith » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:12 pm

Namor is a bad ass, T'Challa falls apart like a whiny little bitch. It's as simple as that.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:00 pm

"You are no longer my son."

That read extremely harsh :lol:

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Juan Cena » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:55 pm

In context of Maximus' speech, the only one willing to pull the trigger was the true "king" among men without countries.
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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby habitual » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:58 pm

Avengers 32 was the watershed for me. The conversation between Cap and Franklin Richards I think is going to be the lynchpin for how this plays out.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby Chessack » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:33 pm

ElijahSnowFan wrote:It's a subtle deconstruction of heroism, in the regard that really, when you distill it to its base level, what right do any of them have to do what they do?


And 20 or 30 years ago, such a theme might have been semi-original.

But today? It's asked every month in half the titles on the shelf. The entire INDUSTRY has become a deconstruction of itself. And as Kurt Busiek said in one of his TPB intros (and I am probably butchering the exact wording but the gist is correct), at some point you have to stop deconstructing and start building again, or the whole thing becomes pointless.

What right do any of them have to do what they do? Used to be a very simple answer to that question back in the day... back when I was growing up, when my friends and I were RPing superheroes in the game Champions. I'll give it to you nice and simple. Here it is. Ready?

The superheroes have power. And with great power, comes great responsibility. They don't have a "right" to do what they do, they have a responsibility to do it. To use their powers wisely and well. Not to use them selfishly. Not to use them recklessly or callously. To use them to help, not to harm.

But comics aren't about that any more, because this generation of writers doesn't believe in such "old fashioned" principles.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby PDH » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:42 pm

Chessack wrote:
And 20 or 30 years ago, such a theme might have been semi-original.

But today? It's asked every month in half the titles on the shelf. The entire INDUSTRY has become a deconstruction of itself. And as Kurt Busiek said in one of his TPB intros (and I am probably butchering the exact wording but the gist is correct), at some point you have to stop deconstructing and start building again, or the whole thing becomes pointless.

What right do any of them have to do what they do? Used to be a very simple answer to that question back in the day... back when I was growing up, when my friends and I were RPing superheroes in the game Champions. I'll give it to you nice and simple. Here it is. Ready?

The superheroes have power. And with great power, comes great responsibility. They don't have a "right" to do what they do, they have a responsibility to do it. To use their powers wisely and well. Not to use them selfishly. Not to use them recklessly or callously. To use them to help, not to harm.

But comics aren't about that any more, because this generation of writers doesn't believe in such "old fashioned" principles.


The old fashioned principle you have described there is 'might makes right.'

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby john lewis hawk » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:22 pm

Chessack wrote:
And 20 or 30 years ago, such a theme might have been semi-original.

But today? It's asked every month in half the titles on the shelf. The entire INDUSTRY has become a deconstruction of itself. And as Kurt Busiek said in one of his TPB intros (and I am probably butchering the exact wording but the gist is correct), at some point you have to stop deconstructing and start building again, or the whole thing becomes pointless.
I agree with this. There's a lot of examples of poor deconstruction due to the writers not going far enough or too far with the aspects that make up deconstruction.

Storytelling, in regard to superhero comics, is not about deconstructing or building stories but figuring out what makes it tick. What makes the superhero work? What makes the superhero not work? What makes the reader happy? What makes the reader unhappy? Questions like those and playing with is what makes stories good or not.

As for Busiek, Astro City and Superman: Secret Identity are both examples of deconstruction and I don't really think Secret Identity really built anything up so his opinion (along with a lot of anti-superhero deconstruction arguments) are silly.

What right do any of them have to do what they do? Used to be a very simple answer to that question back in the day... back when I was growing up, when my friends and I were RPing superheroes in the game Champions. I'll give it to you nice and simple. Here it is. Ready?

The superheroes have power. And with great power, comes great responsibility. They don't have a "right" to do what they do, they have a responsibility to do it. To use their powers wisely and well. Not to use them selfishly. Not to use them recklessly or callously. To use them to help, not to harm.
I would love to see that argument work in the real world.

"George Zimmerman, you are accused of shooting Trayvon Martin, an innocent kid. What do you have to say for yourself?"

"Your honor, with great power comes great responsibility. I saw a black kid with a hoodie on and I thought it was suspicious so I shot hi-"

"Guilty. So damn guilty. Case closed."

But comics aren't about that any more, because this generation of writers doesn't believe in such "old fashioned" principles.

Batman was killing criminals with guns when he first showed up and I'm sure Superman was too. Captain America probably killed too because there's really no way he could've fought in WWII without killing. I'm sure most of the major comic book characters have killed prior to the 80's.

I've always maintained the idea that people who are anti-deconstruction have simplest ideas when it comes to comic books. They're people who don't really read indies and creator-owned, they don't like artists with a more stylistic flair such as Chris Bachalo or Frank Quitely, and don't like most new changes. In short, they're more conservative than Sarah Palin if she was wielding a several guns and a dress made to look like the American flag.

And it's really sad though since comic book staples such as Alan Moore, Watchmen, Spider-Man, Dark Knight Returns, Will Eisner, Maus, etc. have really increased the artistic flair of comic books but anti-deconstruction fans are going to be fighting progress with every step forward it makes.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby fieldy snuts » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:55 pm

I don't think the complaints about deconstruction being done to death are valid here. Either in other stories they're elseworlds/multiverse stories where the writers can go nuts or they're half-assed in an attempt to preserve the status quo for the next arc.

Hickman's basically had the main characters set in the 616 universe do one of the most heinous things imaginable in knowingly being pushed to commit genocide in a no-win scenario. Using the heroes we've known and loved for years and not just an alternate version to use as an out for the ramifications.

Events in this sort of scope using such prominent characters going so far don't happen very often. And this isn't just a left swerve hotshot editorial idea, it's been a massive build-up upon build-up of ideas from so many books from over a decade which Hickman has put together into his endgame. He's continued what Bendis started (and thought he ended) by doing his own thing independent of it yet still remaining faithful to what he accomplished with the Avengers.

Just my $0.02 on the deconstruction debate.

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Re: Trying to wrap my mind around New Avengers 21 (spoilers)

Postby GHERU » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:02 pm

john lewis hawk wrote:And it's really sad though since comic book staples such as Alan Moore, Watchmen, Spider-Man, Dark Knight Returns, Will Eisner, Maus, etc. have really increased the artistic flair of comic books but anti-deconstruction fans are going to be fighting progress with every step forward it makes.
.

I'm not sure thats fair.
There is something to the idea that deconstruction has run its course and is now, basically, the same regurgitation it was meant to rail against. It may be time for the happy medium of deconstruction and Silver Age morals.

As much as I like that super heroes comics have become more complex, I shouldn't be bored by the idea of The Avengers blowing up a planet.
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