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Supergirl Season Four Thread

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achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:35 am

IMO, if they are invested in doing the "aliens are oppressed by evil racist humans and are an obvious stand-in for a real life situation but we're too dumb to be more subtle" thing, they need to devote some screen time to showing exactly WHY humanity should embrace the aliens. Till now, all they've done is show two kinds of aliens, destructive aliens killing humans and/or trying to conquer the Earth, or refugee aliens who offer literally nothing and are here without explanation, (AFAIK the only way aliens have arrived on Earth in the show was via the Phantom Zone prison Fort Roz, or the Daxamite invasion ships, neither of which could have reasonably been expected to hold innocent refugees including children----seems like the SG writers were trying to confuse two different real life situations here in the context of a not too well thought through show).

Even Supergirl herself has done very little on the show for humans except to rescue them from other aliens. Not nothing, and it seems to be implied that Superman has done a considerable bit for humanity outside of rescuing them from other aliens, but that makes the case for those two Kryptonians. And most humans don't seem to really know that much about J'ohn, who really hasn't done all that much on the show outside of the DEO.

So, if they want to go that route, they need to start showing other aliens saving humans from strictly earthbound situations, or introducing alien tech that saves human lives, (medicine for example), or makes human lives better, (maybe clean energy sources or the like). Going the ham-handed "Bright" route seems like a waste. Either go the full-n strictly comic book route with no attempt at SJW preaching, (my preferred route), or take an honest examination of the effects on both human and alien societies such a merger might have, rather than the standard "humans are all evil and racist for not welcoming the aliens who only seem to be trying to kill them or to be refugees who are contributing nothing" route.

One would hope that in reality, refugees from an advanced alien civilization would bother to contribute some of their science and technology to humanity, to make their own lot better if not from any other motive.

But that seems to have escaped the writers.
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IvCNuB4

Staff Writer

Postby IvCNuB4 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:32 pm

Draco x wrote:
Not that I am defending Ivy but at least he isn't as bad as the Syxxpaxx aka the Troll Emperor( If anyone actually remembers him before he left here). At least Ivy is humorous how he staunchly defends DC as I know he doesn't believe most of what he says deep down.


Draco, who more times than not looks for the negative side of things, doesn't think that I truly believe what I say ?

That wounds me deeply, sir. Wounds me deep to my core.







:P
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Draco x

Regular-Sized Poster

Postby Draco x » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:14 pm

IvCNuB4 wrote:
Draco, who more times than not looks for the negative side of things, doesn't think that I truly believe what I say ?

That wounds me deeply, sir. Wounds me deep to my core.








:P


Don't worry, you'll be fine. I am sure you will have several more responses lined up after this one. 8)
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Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:16 pm

achilles wrote:But that seems to have escaped the writers.


It escaped them because writing good stories that make sense and take time to develop is not what the writers of this television series prioritize. Instead, they prioritize their "message" and then try to make up a story that will get that message across. Taking the time to build the narrative like you suggest would get in the way of their message. They can't have that.
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Bianco

rubber spoon

Postby Bianco » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:04 pm

Chessack wrote:
It escaped them because writing good stories that make sense and take time to develop is not what the writers of this television series prioritize. Instead, they prioritize their "message" and then try to make up a story that will get that message across. Taking the time to build the narrative like you suggest would get in the way of their message. They can't have that.


Yeah that was apparent with the mess they called season 3.
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:24 am

Chessack wrote:I've been trying to work on a podcast about the show with another guy, and if that proceeds I will watch it just to be able to discuss it on the podcast, but it's been kind of on hiatus before it even began, so I'm not sure it will even happen.


Don't know if this would help, but Cracked has something that seems relevant to this.

Just throwin' that out there...
User avatar

Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:41 am

Bianco wrote:Yeah that was apparent with the mess they called season 3.


Started in Season 2.

They wanted to have homosexual characters and a lesbian relationship in the show. This was decided in a board room somewhere, and they they just forced it into the show with Alex over like a 4 week period, going from not knowing she even is a lesbian to being madly in love with Maggie Sawyer and happily in that relationship. Now, this is a story that could have been interesting and engaging, could have had emotional depth, and could have been told well. But doing that would have taken most of the season, and they wanted to get their pro-gay-marriage message out there ASAP. So they didn't bother making the story believable. That was irrelevant since it is not one of their goals. Continuity? What's that?

They also wanted, during 2016 and in the height of the Trump-Clinton election, to virtue signal about refugees being let into the country, so they just abandoned the entire first 22 episodes (Season 1 + the first 2 episodes of Season 2) and decided that earth is full of aliens, the public knows about them (the President made speeches about them in ep. 3 of season 2), they hang out in "alien bars," and there's been an ongoing public debate (that we never saw once before they said it existed) about whether to allow "alien refugees" to stay on earth. So even though this entire story flies directly in the face of the entire previously established continuity of the show, again, continuity? What's that?

Again, this could have been an interesting premise. After the Superman story, they could have opened episode 3 with a really cool montage of the "evil Daxamites" (NOT from Krypton's system but somewhere else) with their powers, going out to conquer the galaxy. They take over one planet after another. Refugees flee. They head to earth because it is remote and not a player on the galactic stage. Over many episodes aliens come to be known in the world. They could even have an ongoing debate between Supergirl on one side, who favors letting them in, and Superman on the other (or perhaps J'onn/Alex) who think that this is too dangerous and will attract the Daxamites. By the end of the season the Daxamites do come (proving Superman's side right) but then some of those refugees help the Super-cousins defeat the Daxamites and repel the invasion (proving Supergirl right). This would be an interesting story that could be fleshed out over the course of a whole year, bit by bit. But we couldn't have that because... we need to get our message out there. And we have to do it NOW, because it's election time and we need to convince the public that Trump is evil before the go to the polls! Let's just do it!

That kind of attitude is why the Supergirl season 2-3 stories have largely sucked and often been laughable stupid. They do not care about continuity because their top priority is their message. If the established continuity or character personalities on the show get in the way of tha message, they ignore those things.

And this leads to narrative elements that the writers have not earned. This is what they don't understand. You can't just have Alex be a lesbian married to Maggie Sawyer. You have to earn it in the story. You can't just have there be aliens and an amnesty debate. You have to earn it. They are in too much of a rush to get their point across and they don't bother to earn anything in their ongoing stories... So it all ends up being stupid and incompetent instead of being any good.

Say what you want about Season 1 (there are bad things to say about it, for sure)... at least during that season they realized that they had to earn the narrative elements they put into place. Supergirl didn't go from being unknown to a national celebrity. She had to earn it over most of the season. J'onn didn't go from being Hank to being a trusted alien member of the team. He had to earn it over time. And when Astra started having second thoughts about what she was doing, it didn't just happen over-night. As bad as the actress was (and oh Rao, was she awful), they still had the character earn it by becoming less certain over time.

The writers on Supergirl from Season 2, episode 3 on have steadfastly refused to earn their narrative elements through the story, and it has come back to bite them in the ass week after week. Season 4 will be no different.
User avatar

HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:06 am

Chessack wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler: Click to Expand
Started in Season 2.

They wanted to have homosexual characters and a lesbian relationship in the show. This was decided in a board room somewhere, and they they just forced it into the show with Alex over like a 4 week period, going from not knowing she even is a lesbian to being madly in love with Maggie Sawyer and happily in that relationship. Now, this is a story that could have been interesting and engaging, could have had emotional depth, and could have been told well. But doing that would have taken most of the season, and they wanted to get their pro-gay-marriage message out there ASAP. So they didn't bother making the story believable. That was irrelevant since it is not one of their goals. Continuity? What's that?

They also wanted, during 2016 and in the height of the Trump-Clinton election, to virtue signal about refugees being let into the country, so they just abandoned the entire first 22 episodes (Season 1 + the first 2 episodes of Season 2) and decided that earth is full of aliens, the public knows about them (the President made speeches about them in ep. 3 of season 2), they hang out in "alien bars," and there's been an ongoing public debate (that we never saw once before they said it existed) about whether to allow "alien refugees" to stay on earth. So even though this entire story flies directly in the face of the entire previously established continuity of the show, again, continuity? What's that?

Again, this could have been an interesting premise. After the Superman story, they could have opened episode 3 with a really cool montage of the "evil Daxamites" (NOT from Krypton's system but somewhere else) with their powers, going out to conquer the galaxy. They take over one planet after another. Refugees flee. They head to earth because it is remote and not a player on the galactic stage. Over many episodes aliens come to be known in the world. They could even have an ongoing debate between Supergirl on one side, who favors letting them in, and Superman on the other (or perhaps J'onn/Alex) who think that this is too dangerous and will attract the Daxamites. By the end of the season the Daxamites do come (proving Superman's side right) but then some of those refugees help the Super-cousins defeat the Daxamites and repel the invasion (proving Supergirl right). This would be an interesting story that could be fleshed out over the course of a whole year, bit by bit. But we couldn't have that because... we need to get our message out there. And we have to do it NOW, because it's election time and we need to convince the public that Trump is evil before the go to the polls! Let's just do it!

That kind of attitude is why the Supergirl season 2-3 stories have largely sucked and often been laughable stupid. They do not care about continuity because their top priority is their message. If the established continuity or character personalities on the show get in the way of tha message, they ignore those things.

And this leads to narrative elements that the writers have not earned. This is what they don't understand. You can't just have Alex be a lesbian married to Maggie Sawyer. You have to earn it in the story. You can't just have there be aliens and an amnesty debate. You have to earn it. They are in too much of a rush to get their point across and they don't bother to earn anything in their ongoing stories... So it all ends up being stupid and incompetent instead of being any good.

Say what you want about Season 1 (there are bad things to say about it, for sure)... at least during that season they realized that they had to earn the narrative elements they put into place. Supergirl didn't go from being unknown to a national celebrity. She had to earn it over most of the season. J'onn didn't go from being Hank to being a trusted alien member of the team. He had to earn it over time. And when Astra started having second thoughts about what she was doing, it didn't just happen over-night. As bad as the actress was (and oh Rao, was she awful), they still had the character earn it by becoming less certain over time.


The writers on Supergirl from Season 2, episode 3 on have steadfastly refused to earn their narrative elements through the story, and it has come back to bite them in the ass week after week. Season 4 will be no different.


This!

Except... Someone at the CW seems to like it, which is why it's moving to Sunday nights and they seem to be doubling down on their agenda-based writing.

Image
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SporkBot

Swedish Pinata of Death

Postby SporkBot » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:38 am

Chessack wrote:They wanted to have homosexual characters and a lesbian relationship in the show. This was decided in a board room somewhere, and they they just forced it into the show with Alex over like a 4 week period, going from not knowing she even is a lesbian to being madly in love with Maggie Sawyer and happily in that relationship.


Yeah, Alex being gay wasn't a big deal to me, as it wasn't like she was chasing dudes throughout the first season (the only date we saw her on, she was undercover, so her sexuality could've been considered ambiguous). But then by the finale it's "let's get married", which not only rushed their relationship ridiculously, but also, in hindsight, felt like a giant "return for Season 3" tease.

Again, this could have been an interesting premise. After the Superman story, they could have opened episode 3 with a really cool montage of the "evil Daxamites" (NOT from Krypton's system but somewhere else) with their powers, going out to conquer the galaxy. They take over one planet after another. Refugees flee. They head to earth because it is remote and not a player on the galactic stage. Over many episodes aliens come to be known in the world. They could even have an ongoing debate between Supergirl on one side, who favors letting them in, and Superman on the other (or perhaps J'onn/Alex) who think that this is too dangerous and will attract the Daxamites. By the end of the season the Daxamites do come (proving Superman's side right) but then some of those refugees help the Super-cousins defeat the Daxamites and repel the invasion (proving Supergirl right). This would be an interesting story that could be fleshed out over the course of a whole year, bit by bit.


Hot damn, that would've been a much better route to take.

And this leads to narrative elements that the writers have not earned. This is what they don't understand. You can't just have Alex be a lesbian married to Maggie Sawyer. You have to earn it in the story. You can't just have there be aliens and an amnesty debate. You have to earn it. They are in too much of a rush to get their point across and they don't bother to earn anything in their ongoing stories... So it all ends up being stupid and incompetent instead of being any good.


Which could also be said of other DC-related material, as well. Kinda like writers with lackadaisical takes on heroes keeping their identities (or in Supergirl's case, bases of operation) secret.
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achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:36 pm

Chessack wrote:
Started in Season 2.

They wanted to have homosexual characters and a lesbian relationship in the show. This was decided in a board room somewhere, and they they just forced it into the show with Alex over like a 4 week period, going from not knowing she even is a lesbian to being madly in love with Maggie Sawyer and happily in that relationship. Now, this is a story that could have been interesting and engaging, could have had emotional depth, and could have been told well. But doing that would have taken most of the season, and they wanted to get their pro-gay-marriage message out there ASAP. So they didn't bother making the story believable. That was irrelevant since it is not one of their goals. Continuity? What's that?

They also wanted, during 2016 and in the height of the Trump-Clinton election, to virtue signal about refugees being let into the country, so they just abandoned the entire first 22 episodes (Season 1 + the first 2 episodes of Season 2) and decided that earth is full of aliens, the public knows about them (the President made speeches about them in ep. 3 of season 2), they hang out in "alien bars," and there's been an ongoing public debate (that we never saw once before they said it existed) about whether to allow "alien refugees" to stay on earth. So even though this entire story flies directly in the face of the entire previously established continuity of the show, again, continuity? What's that?

Again, this could have been an interesting premise. After the Superman story, they could have opened episode 3 with a really cool montage of the "evil Daxamites" (NOT from Krypton's system but somewhere else) with their powers, going out to conquer the galaxy. They take over one planet after another. Refugees flee. They head to earth because it is remote and not a player on the galactic stage. Over many episodes aliens come to be known in the world. They could even have an ongoing debate between Supergirl on one side, who favors letting them in, and Superman on the other (or perhaps J'onn/Alex) who think that this is too dangerous and will attract the Daxamites. By the end of the season the Daxamites do come (proving Superman's side right) but then some of those refugees help the Super-cousins defeat the Daxamites and repel the invasion (proving Supergirl right). This would be an interesting story that could be fleshed out over the course of a whole year, bit by bit. But we couldn't have that because... we need to get our message out there. And we have to do it NOW, because it's election time and we need to convince the public that Trump is evil before the go to the polls! Let's just do it!

That kind of attitude is why the Supergirl season 2-3 stories have largely sucked and often been laughable stupid. They do not care about continuity because their top priority is their message. If the established continuity or character personalities on the show get in the way of tha message, they ignore those things.

And this leads to narrative elements that the writers have not earned. This is what they don't understand. You can't just have Alex be a lesbian married to Maggie Sawyer. You have to earn it in the story. You can't just have there be aliens and an amnesty debate. You have to earn it. They are in too much of a rush to get their point across and they don't bother to earn anything in their ongoing stories... So it all ends up being stupid and incompetent instead of being any good.

Say what you want about Season 1 (there are bad things to say about it, for sure)... at least during that season they realized that they had to earn the narrative elements they put into place. Supergirl didn't go from being unknown to a national celebrity. She had to earn it over most of the season. J'onn didn't go from being Hank to being a trusted alien member of the team. He had to earn it over time. And when Astra started having second thoughts about what she was doing, it didn't just happen over-night. As bad as the actress was (and oh Rao, was she awful), they still had the character earn it by becoming less certain over time.

The writers on Supergirl from Season 2, episode 3 on have steadfastly refused to earn their narrative elements through the story, and it has come back to bite them in the ass week after week. Season 4 will be no different.


Exactly, that was the problem, not the plot threads themselves, but how they were handled, or rather not built toward. You can't just do a 360 without any build-up.
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Chessack

Great Scott!!!

Postby Chessack » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:17 pm

SporkBot wrote:Hot damn, that would've been a much better route to take..


The sad part, Spork,is that I could think up a better story than they did in 15 minutes. And they spent a whole year doing theirs.

Also, in terms of the lesbian-relationship thing. Personally, I would have found it much more believable after what had happened up through Season 2, Episode 3 (when Maggie first appeared in the story), if Supergirl had been the one who found out she was gay. Think about it. She refused Winn repeatedly, even though they are clearly quite suited to each other. She turned down Cat's son. And then after chasing Jimmy all year, she inexplicably decided the relationship with him, on date #1, "didn't feel right."

To me, this seems like a girl who doesn't know what she wants in terms of relationships. I would believe it if that character then found a woman who ignited that spark for her like no man had done, and went on a realistic journey of discovery that led to her figuring out that she likes girls rather than guys "that way." I would not have used Maggie for this (Floriana Lima was an awful actress and NCPD is redundant with DEO -- I'd just as soon she had been cut entirely from the show), but rather Lena Luthor. This would set up all kinds of cool and interesting story elements such as whether Lena is good or evil, whether Kara can trust her, when or if to tell Lena the truth. Etc. And they could have had Sue Ellen Mishke (i.e. Mama Luthor) be highly disapproving of her daughter's new sexual choices -- this would let them have their "evil conservative" villain and virtue signal all they want, but the story would have been consistent with the characters as we have seen in the first season. Which Alex's behavior really wasn't (Alex is kind of asexual in the first season, but the journey she went on in season 2 is completely out of character for her in terms of her behavior -- being all weepy, girly, silly, etc... that is NOT Alex Danvers).

But they didn't do this because for all their "virtue" signaling they are a bunch of cowards. Turning Alex gay was utterly safe for them because Alex is a non-canon character and therefore there is not a single Supergirl fan in the world who would bat an eyelash at this. But if they had turned the actual Supergirl character into a lesbian, there would have been a huge uproar about that -- which you'd think is exactly what they want. But they were not brave enough to do that. So they went the chicken-shit route and virtue signaled with effectively a throw-away character (from a canon perspective). And instead of being called on it, they were praised because the bean-counters among the leftist elites in Hollywood only care that the show boasts an openly gay character, not that the showrunners are doing something good -- or brave.
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HNutz

Rain Partier

Postby HNutz » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:19 pm

^ NAILED IT!
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Draco x

Regular-Sized Poster

Postby Draco x » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:06 am

achilles wrote:
Exactly, that was the problem, not the plot threads themselves, but how they were handled, or rather not built toward. You can't just do a 360 without any build-up.


True as I have been saying that they missed some golden opportunities with several storylines they left unresolved, such as the disappearance of many characters like Jeremiah Danvers, Hank Henshaw, Superman, CADMUS who basically were just ignored during Season 3. Plus, they only had Lilian Luthor and Ms Martian show up very briefly in Season 3, they gave us a good villain in Adrian Pasdar's Morgan Edge only for him to show up for a few episodes when they were building him up to be one of the main antagonists for Season 3. And yes, while I know that maybe the actors playing most of these characters probably had scheduling conflicts like Pasdar going back to playing Talbot on AOS, it still felt very disjointed-plus the same guy who played the original Henshaw is the same actor playing Martian Manhunter, so they can't use that particular excuse.
For Season 4, I was hoping they could have brought back Edge so they could bring in Intergang as the Big Bad but I doubt that either of them will be showing up anytime soon as I get that Mercy Graves is basically taking Edge's place as a criminal in a suit that will be a foil to Lena.
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achilles

Rain Partier

Postby achilles » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:53 am

Draco x wrote:
True as I have been saying that they missed some golden opportunities with several storylines they left unresolved, such as the disappearance of many characters like Jeremiah Danvers, Hank Henshaw, Superman, CADMUS who basically were just ignored during Season 3. Plus, they only had Lilian Luthor and Ms Martian show up very briefly in Season 3, they gave us a good villain in Adrian Pasdar's Morgan Edge only for him to show up for a few episodes when they were building him up to be one of the main antagonists for Season 3. And yes, while I know that maybe the actors playing most of these characters probably had scheduling conflicts like Pasdar going back to playing Talbot on AOS, it still felt very disjointed-plus the same guy who played the original Henshaw is the same actor playing Martian Manhunter, so they can't use that particular excuse.
For Season 4, I was hoping they could have brought back Edge so they could bring in Intergang as the Big Bad but I doubt that either of them will be showing up anytime soon as I get that Mercy Graves is basically taking Edge's place as a criminal in a suit that will be a foil to Lena.


If that's the case, well then, don't pin story arcs on people who might not be available for the FULL arc. That's kind of basic...and yet somehow, I can believe they messed it up.
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IvCNuB4

Staff Writer

Postby IvCNuB4 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:38 am

There is a reason, that has been explained several times, why we don't see Lillian Luthor or CADMUS anymore.
And Morgan Edge now also.

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